Society Ordo Templi Orientis
Jeremy Charles Ellis · Richard Gernon / Gurney
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
BEFORE THE HONORABLE CHARLES A. LEGGE, JUDGE
Grady McMurtry, William E. Heidrick, Phyllis Seckler, Helen Parsons Smith, William Breeze, Francis I. Regardie, James Wasserman, and Kenneth Anger, individuals, Ordo Templi Orientis, a corporation, and Thelema Publications, a business entity,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
Society Ordo Templi Orientis, a corporation, Thelema Publishing Company, a corporation, Marcello Ramos Motta, an individual, and Does I through X, inclusive,
Defendants.
CIVIL NO. C-83-5434
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT TRIAL
Tuesday, May 14, 1985
450 Golden Gate Avenue
San Francisco, CAlifornia 94102
THE COURT: Well, who held the title of Director?
THE WITNESS: Very well. The title of Director was held by a Jeremy Charles Ellis of London, England, by a William Robert or Richard Barton of Melbourne Australia, by a Claudia Canuto of Nashville, Tennessee, and I believe that was all at that time.
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. Is it your understanding that these people were members of the Board of Directors of the Tennessee corporation, SOTO?
A. Well, no, because none of them except me was an [page 467] American citizen. So I don't know if that's possible. The legal aspects of that I'm unaware of.
Q. Were there ever any Board of Directors' meetings?
A. Never.
Q. Have you seen corporate records?
A. Yes, I have. I examined Mr. Motta's files in December of 1983 when I spent a week at his house.
Q. Well, did Mr. Motta ever consult the Board of Directors regarding the SOTO action that he wanted?
A. Consult in what sense?
Q. Well, for their approval.
A. No. Our approval was not required and most often never sought for any action he took. And to ever go in opposition to any direction that he wanted to take put you in immediate peril of expulsion, as he took great pains to point out whenever such suggestions were made.
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Q. Yes. What can you tell me about the Constitutions?
A. Well, in both Constitutions the absolute authority of Mr. Motta as supervisor, again, a title that he invented for himself is maintained.
In the firs Constitution there was a chapter on disciplinary norms which mentioned that if a member acted out of line that a request could be made to the Supervisor for the "elimination of the culprit."
Q. Do you know that that phrase "elimination" meant? [page 469]
A. Well, Mr. Motta uses it in a rather ambiguous sense. In one sense, the common sense acceptation of it I would think would mean the removal of a member from the SOTO.
However, I have seen him use it in letters and in a document he wrote in the '50s about the OTO where he was calling for the murder of people who acted out of line in the Order.
Q. What letter, if you remember, was that?
A. One letter I can think of was a letter to the late Jeremy Charles Ellis, a British Director whom he expelled.
MR. MITTEL: Objection; Best Evidence.
Move to strike the answer.
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Q. Do you know about how many members there are, well, today or within the last six months, currently?
A. Within my knowledge i would say there are maybe four, perhaps three members internationally.
Q. Now, who is Jeremy Ellis, is he a member?
A. Mr. Ellis, now deceased, was a British Director of [page 472] the SOTO and was expelled by Mr. Motta.
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BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. Was Jeremy Ellis ever a member of plaintiff, Ordo Templi Orientis?
A. Absolutely not. I keep track of those on the mailing list, and I have never seen that one go by, especially before we used the computer on those listings. It was awful.
MR. MITTEL: Your Honor, am I clear that Mr. MacKenzie's rendition of the article is not in [page 564] evidence but only a translation?
THE COURT: No, that's simply a translation.
MR. MITTEL: That document has not been offered and that's one of the documents to which we object.
THE COURT: On what basis?
MR. MITTEL: On the basis of authenticity and on the basis of hearsay and on the basis of relevance.
MR. MacKENZIE: Well, I think the relevance is quite clear. Mr. Ellis was a member of Mr. Motta's association, a member of his Board of Directors. And he's been confused with my client.
The authenticity, I don't have any way of authenticating other than when Mr. Heidrick received it.
THE COURT: I will admit it subject to motion to strike at the conclusion of plaintiffs' case.
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Q. Can you tell me how that insignia differs from the one that the plaintiffs use.
A. By the addition of the word "Society," and by the fact that it is in color.
Q. And on the first page it states the date first used in California is dated as April 15th, 1980.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. When did you say that you decided you wanted to reformulate the oTO rituals? When did you first make up your mind to do that?
A. When the Crowley rituals were published.
Q. Okay. I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 215.
Is that a membership application to the Society?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And why do you inquire about the police record?
A. Because I have had pupils with criminal records, [page 926] and it's necessary to know about it.
Q. When id you start using this form?
A. It may have been some time between 1980 and 1983. I do not recollect the exact date.
Q. Are you familiar with the name Jeremy Ellis?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he a director of your Society?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long was he a director?
A. I do not recollect exact dates, but at least four years, I think.
Q. When did he stop being a director?
A. I asked him to resign. If he had not resigned, I would have expelled him.
I do not recollect the exact date.
Q. Was it -- can you guess which year it was?
A. I can tell you that it was six months before he had made his attempt on the records at Routledge & Kegan Paul. That much I know, because I went back in the records to look at the news.
Q. You mean the bombing of the publisher's house in London?
A. The attempted bombing.
Q. I show you Plaintiffs' No. 2190 and ask if this is a letter that you sent to Mr. Ellis? [page 927]
A. I -- I gave Mr. Starr permission to copy my entire correspondence with --
Q. Just answer the questions, Mr. Motta, please.
A. Yes, yes, yes.
Q. Was he a director of the SOTO at that time?
A. Mr. Ellis? Yes.
Q. Would you read the portions I've underlined, please?
THE COURT: Well, are you going to move for the admission of this into evidence?
MR. MacKENZIE: Yes, I am, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, then, it isn't necessary to take up time.
MR. MacKENZIE: All right.
THE COURT: You've marked my copies and so I can --
MR. MacKENZIE: That's fine.
THE COURT: -- read them. There is no sense the record to do that.
MR. MacKENZIE: All right.
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. I show you Plaintiffs' No., 216 and ask you if you have written this letter?
A. Yes, un-huh.;
Q. I'm not going to embarrass the Court by reading this [page 928] extremely obscene letter.
A. Oh, really.
Q. But I wanted to know if you oftentimes write such vulgar letters?
MR. MITTEL: Objection to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Well, the letter can speak for itself.
You've moved for its admission into evidence. I can read it. Let's leave it at that.
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. My question is this fundamental, I think, Mr. Motta: How do you in the form of writing such letters, in the form of dealing with people such as Ellis and discussion murder in that letter, how can you say that you carry on the spirit of the Ordo Templi Orientis, the spirit of Aleister Crowley?
A. I think, sir, that you should leave that for the Court to decide.
Q. Because I would like to hear your answer.
A. You just heard it.
Q. You don't have an answer?
A. Would you not consider that your question was rhetorical?
I am here. [page 929]
Q. Do you feel you carry on the spirit of Aleister Crowley?
A. Yes. We are not hypocrites.
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
BEFORE THE HONORABLE CHARLES A. LEGGE, JUDGE
Grady McMurtry, William E. Heidrick, Phyllis Seckler, Helen Parsons Smith, William Breeze, Francis I. Regardie, James Wasserman, and Kenneth Anger, individuals, Ordo Templi Orientis, a corporation, and Thelema Publications, a business entity,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
Society Ordo Templi Orientis, a corporation, Thelema Publishing Company, a corporation, Marcello Ramos Motta, an individual, and Does I through X, inclusive,
Defendants.
CIVIL NO. C-83-5434
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT TRIAL
Tuesday, May 14, 1985
450 Golden Gate Avenue
San Francisco, CAlifornia 94102
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. Well, how much longer were you in California?
A. I traveled from Los Angeles to San Francisco on July 26th, where I met Daniel Gunther and Richard Gernon. Mr. Gernon was Mr. Gunther's student. He met Mr. Gunther through me. [page 410]
And I had requested them to come out to California to verify my judgments of Mrs. Smith, Miss Seckler and Mr. McMurtry.
I knew that Mr. Motta felt these people were capable of fascination and magical attack in a very subtle way, and I wanted to best discharge my responsibility to him by bringing in other witnesses that he would trust to either confirm or deny my opinions.
And thank god they came.
Q. Do you know what their reactions were?
A. Their relations were virtually identical to mine. I have a letter from Mr. Gunther --
MR. MITTEL: Objection; hearsay.
THE WITNESS: -- written July 30th in which be confirms my opinion verbatim.
MR. MITTEL: Motion to strike the answer.
THE COURT: Yes. Objection sustained.
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. Let me ask you this: Do you know if Mr. Gunther and Mr. Gernon were initiated into the OTO?
A. Yes, they were. Along with myself.
Q. And who initiated them?
A. Mr. McMurtry. [page 411]
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Q. Does the A.·. A.·. have any rights to the library?
A. No. The A.·. A.·. is not -- does not include a concept of legal rights.
Q. Do you know for a fact who took the library in 1979?
A. Who took the library in 1979?
Q. The theft of it?
A. I don't have the slightest idea.
Q. Where were you living in 1979?
A. In New York.
Q. How old were you in 1976 when all this was going on?
A. I believe I was 25, 26.
Q. Mr. Mittel asked you if you didn't have some kind of a loyalty towards Gernon, Richard Gernon. [page 450]
A. Richard Gernon? Yes.
MR. MITTEL: Objection. That's a misleading characterization of the question.
THE COURT: What was the question --
MR. MacKENZIE: Let me re --
THE COURT: Well, introduce it differently, then. You're just introducing the subject matter, I assume?
MR. MacKENZIE: Yes.
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. Did you state that you had some loyalty towards Richard Gernon at this time --
A. My loyalty to Mr. Gernon is a personal friendship as well as Order loyalty. But I believe it is Mr. Gunther that we're referring to.
Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Gunther.
-- and that you had feelings of loyalty after the Calaveras Court decree, but during that time as well?
A. Certainly.
Q. Was Mr. Gunther a member of the A.·. A.·.?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And was he a member of the OTO?
A. There was no OTO.
MR. MacKENZIE: No further questions. [page 451]
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Q. Were there any other members in the A.·. A.·. at the [page 458] time you joined other than Mr. Gunther and Mr. Gernon?
A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Q. Did you ever discuss at this time the OTO itself?
A. No. There was absolutely no discussion of the OTO. Our matters at the time were solely concerned with the A.·. A.·..
THE COURT: I've lost who he's talking to, Mr. Motta or Mr. Gernon?
MR. MacKENZIE: No. I'm sorry, Your Honor.
This is with Mr. Gunther and Mr. Gernon.
BY MR. MacKENZIE:
Q. Let me ask you a preliminary question:
Was Mr. Motta in the United States at this time?
A. No, he was not, sir.
Q. Do you know when he first came to the United States in the 1970s?
A. Mr. Motta did not come to the United States in the 1970s; he came to the United States in July 1980.
Q. He was never in the United States in the 1970s, to you knowledge?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are the A.·. A.·. and the OTO related?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if Mr. Gernon became involved with the [page 459] OTO?
A. When I first talked with Mr. Gernon on the telephone in, I believe, May of 1977 he indicated that he had been in California in July of 1976 and was then initiated into the plaintiffs" OTO.
Q. When did the SOTO develop?
A in May of 1977 I was informed by Richard Gernon that Mr. Motta had chartered James Daniel Gunther to be his OTO representative -- SOTO representative in the United States.
Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Gunther an American citizen?
A. Yes, he is, sir.
Q. Do you know if he went to Brazil to get chartered?
A. No, he did not. This all done through the mail.
Q. So, in other words, prior to this SOTO in May of 1977, there was no SOTO?
A. That is correct.
Q. Where were you living at this time?
A. In May of 1977 I was living in St. Louis, Missouri.
Q. Did you ever live in Nashville?
A. Yes, I did. I resided in the academic year of 1977 and 1978 when I attended Vanderbilt University.
Q. Were you familiar with the SOTO at that time? [page 460]
A. Yes, I was. I had visited there that spring and had talked with people.
Q. Do you know how many members there were in the SOTO at that time?
A. There were approximately five to seven members.
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Background: The Song the of the Whitewash.