O.T.O. Instrument of Succession — Part One

The scene is the second floor of a tenement type apartment, located over a bagel shop on Marlboro Road near the Newkirk Plaza subway platform in Brooklyn, New York. This apartment building is residence to Michael Kramer, Richard "Gurney" Gernon, and the site of the Kephra Chapter O.T.O. Temple. The conversation takes place in a room appropriately nicknamed "the War Room", just feet from the entrance to the Temple. Present in the room is Grady Louis McMurtry, Bill Breeze, James Wasserman, Richard Gernon, Michael Kramer, and one other member of The Sanctuary Of The Gnosis.

RGIt says here...uh..the only reference that we've been able to find is that he is chosen in a manner not here to be declared.

GMhmm

JWRight.

RGThat's all that is known.

BBNo no, that's not all that is known,

GM(chuckles)

BBbecause its well known that Crowley defined in that 'Caliphate Letter' in question-

RGOh well, I mean from this-

BBDo you still have them up here? You know, the Caliphate letter

RGYes

BBis like real clear- (aside to JW) have you talked about that with him?

JWWell

UNAnd silence is consent-

JWnot...not at...we're going on someth...right now we're discussing um...an old..ah issue between um..Grady and I , and Gurney and um and it concerns the uh...

BBOrder Of Thelemites?

JWOrder Of Thelemites.

RGYeah, and the whole concept of a an election for OHO

JWYeah

BBNo...doesn't occur.

XXsomeone coughs

BBYou see its actually Gerald Yorke's-

GMAgain, that was an emergency measure taken by Crowley because the Order was not set up at that point to elect an OHO because this again is seminal in my thinking that the reason Crowley took that expediency was because he didn't have a multinational body.

BBNo. No.

GMAnd thats what we're working back toward-

BBNo. Its as simple as this

GMthe multinational body-

BBIts as simple as this...somebody made a boo boo and we can prove it.

GM(sounding uncertain) um

BBits very simple to prove

UNCrowley allowed for the contingency to-

BBHold on. Hold on. This is like such a story! Its incredible.

GMokay...

BBThere is a document...there are three orders that we know of theres the OTO...ok? Then there's uh... Order of Thelemites, then there's (his voice gets really low)...A A.

XX(someone coughs again almost at the same time)

BBnow...

GMand the A A?

RGYes

BBYes

GMOk...got it.

BBAlright...now the OTO...the head of the OTO is the OHO...ok?

GMOk.

BBCrowley was uh very um concerned about leaving a clear succession and ...

GMThe allot of an heir.

BBYeah, the allot of an heir. and ah he left it to Karl Germer and to you because he had to look beyond Germer.

GMThat's what he said in this (the letter) right ?

BBThats right...now theres been always a question of how an OHO becomes an OHO....it says in the Constitution its not declared so we just know from that, however in the Caliphate letter, he says Germer is of course the natural Caliph "but I have to look beyond him to you" elsewhere when he's talking about Blooding-

RGYes.

BB...specifically the requirements uh that specific uh the desireability of that in a future Caliph and then in other words parenthesis ie: OHO-

GMhmm

BBimplied...

MKspelled out...

RGHe himself...

MKspelled out Outer Head of the Order

RGHe himself says that the Caliph is the Outer Head of the Order.

GMWell this..yeah..this is my reading says on that too, since Germer was the natural Caliph and obviously the one to follow him (Crowley), but of course I also have this being a constitutionalist that the Caliphate

JWRight

GMwas created on an afternoon of dispair that is to say that it was falling apart obviously we were not getting the work published obviously there was no one else there....I was all by myself (deep breath) and so I simply decided to commit as it were the great... magickal act, of activating Crowley's documents

JWRight

GM....and so I stood there in that empty storefront and I looked towards the West and I made up my mind to do this and I typed a letter typed two letters one to Regardie and one to Yorke saying

JWuh-huh

GMthat I have decided to accept the burden of the Caliphate because that is what the Caliph is known in the Orient as the bearer of the burden...

JWuh-huh

GM..et caetera...and so that then having activated that by this magickal act of will this then of course what you give me now is the meat of the order manifesting itself, where up to now we've been working with sticks and stones as it were.

JW(apparently reading from Crowley) Your actual life or Blooding is the sort of initiation I regard as the first essential for a Caliph...

GMmm-hmm (in agreement)

JWfor ....say twenty years hence the Outer Head of The Order must

GMAh-ha..

JWamong other things have had the experience of War as it is in fact today..

GMwell its certainly longer than twenty years since (laughs about WW2)

JWYes but putting the Caliph, putting the Caliph and the Outer Head in one breath..

XXSomeone coughs

BBOK now

GMthat is true

BBthis is important..now try to follow this because its a verrry difficult problem....it took ..it took ... all of us....like (laughs) we had beaten our brains to get around it but once we did, its like perfectly clear. There is a document...ok.. the OHO which I was talking about umm is in fact appointed after Crowley's death, there was not supposed to be an election for OHO...Germer was it. Ok? And Crowley..

GMuhhhh Germer was Frater Superior until such time as an OHO was declared ... as I understood it.

BBNo, but thats based on a letter you got that's fowarded through New York from Gerald Yorke..I can go get the letter out..but you know what it says..

GMMaybe...but go ahead, go ahead...I don't have to-

XXSeveral people try to talk:

RGThis ..This is the essential point of it

UNListen to this part...

JWThis is the one about the...

BBThis is the kicker...

UN(to others) Let Billy do the presentation.

BBThis is the kicker... its very funny ...that letter had a quote saying that within such and such a period of time Frater Saturnus must call an election to uh... of all ranking AA members over the grade of...uh..

JWZelator

BBZelator umm to determine who will be the new head. Um...now..that is a quote from the Constitution of The Order Of Thelemites...that was taken bodily out of that document by Yorke sent through New York and Germer and fowarded on to you.

GMuh-huh

BBnowhere on it did it say Order Of Thelemites, its taken completely out of context and its been the source of considerable confusion for 35 years (laughing). Because it is specifically for that order...it has nothing to do with the OTO. Nothing at all.

RG(slowly) He was supposed to hold an election to decide the head of the Order Of Thelemites

BBThats what the document...

RGSeeing as how if you see the whole document every name has been scratched off. He did not hold that election because there was no one to vote.

GMWell Germer had "German" logic yeah..

RGWell it was obvious Crowley through his life had scratched voting members names off. it was

GMWelll uh I got you, I got you, but it was a...this has been the crux of-

RGuntil there was no one left (smiling is if a punch line)

XX(someone laughing)

GMof-

RGexcept Germer!

XX(laughing stops)

GMDejury versus defacto you see...uhh we....when Karl did not-

BBNo! But this is we have it dejure man! I'm tellin you this is not defacto OT..OHO

RGThis is

UNYeah let him-

GMNoooooo!

UNfinish the presentation.

BBYou have dejury OHO

GMYo yo yo! (trying to get their attention) But lets review a little history here real fast. Ok-fine.

XXOk

GMWhen Karl.... and I'm talking about a little antedeluvian history of 47-49....that sort of thing...when it became obvious, after he had notified us that this was going to happen, and my memory of it is that within that year he simply let us know that he was now OHO and I remember talking and writing to Mildred and Ray and to others and saying you know like..."What Happened?" But we were stuck with the thing. And the "thing" was this: Karl regardless of how you looked at it, was Frater Superior of the Order, Now...this then in my opinion is the basis of Karl's later paranoia...fueled by Sasha... in terms of paranoia about my wanting to su.. to replace... that I was putting a revolt against Germer because as though he had seen the logic that he was the only member of the Order and therefore he did not have to call a convocation...

JWNot the OTO

GMin our minds that made him defacto! But there was always a question of dejury.

BBDefacto what.

GMDefacto OHO.

BBNo No he was the only member of the Order Of Thelemites.

GMBut we're talking about the OTO.

RGOk!

JWHe was...he was

GMHe was the Frater Superior of the OTO regardless of whatever-

MKOHO as expressed...as expressed in the constitution is a dejure term.

GMbut I mean....

MKThe defacto head is anyone actually in charge of whats going on.

GMNo no no no no!

BBBut you see the point here is getting confused again...

GMThere is defacto and then there is by law. A dictator is defacto but operate a constitution is by law.

JWRight.

GMAnd thats what we are talking about!

BBBut I'm telling you in all honesty Grady...

GMuh-huh

BBthat you are constitutionally...

RGDejury

BBConstitutionally, dejury OHO.

GM(offhandedly, quickly brushing it aside) Right.Thank you. But we're talking about-

XX(all others laugh at this "matter of fact" acceptance)

GMwe're talking about Karl and psychology

BBumhm

GMbecause just as when I gave umm Jerry Cornielius a lot of karma..

XXsomeone coughs

GMa seventh degree thinking I was rewarding him and showing him that, you know, that he was appreciated the psychology was then he wanted to know when he got "paid"- when he got the next raise and so he voluntarily took the eighth degree much against my advice. Now the same thing happened here with Germer, uh, having declared himself OHO there was nothing anybody could do about it but the logic of it or the psychology of it was that he was always antsy about ...about people beneath him and I think one reason why he didn't initiate because he didn't want any competition and as long as he was the only one around, he was the only one who could do anything, but of course that killed the Order. Regardless of the Order Of Thelemites, in the OTO there was no one to replace him at that time. I couldn't. I was busy getting my education.

RGRight. Right.

GMNobody...I say then I say Jack died in 52 but he wasn't involved. In that sense. I mean he was at that time had seperated himself from the organizational work as such....... other than fuckin around with Audrey. And uh Ray and Mildred, no, none of those...nobody wanted the job...

XX(laughter)

GMand it left him defacto head. He was in a sense dictatorial...but uh..in that sense so that um...this sort of thing has been something on my mind, for forty fucken years... and I-

XXBut...

GMPardon me?...but in any case, I'm not argueing with your logic, I'm merely suggesting to you that logic and human emotions have be both taken in together into consideration when dealing with subjects of this nature (starts tapping the table in emphasis of his point) I KNOW that your logic is right BUT, HOW will this effect the people involved because THAT there... how they react will effect... will effect the Order ...

G.M.So we've got this three billiard shot going.

M.K.Once again it would effect the Order magickally. The O.H.O. is being treated in the same way as the Sanctuary of the Gnosis.

G.M.Good.

J.W.The idea is is further that we, either we know that Germer may have been appointed as O.H.O. by Crowley and we may not have known about it or there may have been no O.H.O. for a period of time.

R.G.But doesn't he say in the Caliphate letter, he says that Germer is the O.H.O.

A.C.That Caliphate letter seems to indicate very clearly that the Caliph is the O.H.O.

J.W.The caliph and the O.H.O. and that he was looking beyond Germer to you.

R.G.Right.

B.B.Right, yea, in other words your case,

J.W.As his successor.

B.B.Your case as Caliph is based on the letters is quite natural and on your relationship to Crowley.

G.M.Yea.

B.B.Ah however Germer's case is always, is also ah beautifully laid out in the letters because he says that he is of course is natural first Caliph

G.M.Mhm

B.B.And of course will be the O.H.O. and all that. And like that's laid out. And it seems, I feel that Germer really was the O.H.O. um, and that you are in the same sense really the O.H.O.

G.M.Mhmm

B.B.And that the O.H.O. is not an elected office at all and that when it says in the Constitution that an O.H.O. is created in a manner not here to be declared, that it's by appointment. How do you imagine that uh, uh, an O.H.O. could be elected from the grade of Minerval?

(All laugh)

B.B.I mean it's impossible!

(Continued laughter ... G.M. laughter)

A.C.And herein lieth a most sacred mystery.

(More laughter)

B.B.It's a mystery of, it's the Parcivalian thing all over again, you know, it's like ...

M.K.I might once, I might suggest though ...

B.B.It is de facto to that extent that Parcival is the defacto of myths.

R.G.The only mention of any election in any Order body is the mention of the election in the Order of Thelemites ...

B.B.Mhm.

R.G.And we know that the confusion about whether or not the O.H.O. should have been elected arose from a misreading of that document.

B.B.It was just taken out of context

(Several speak at once)

J.W.Yea but it was a mistransmission ...

R.G.And if we go back and look at what we actually have which is in the Constitution,

A.C.The O.H.O. can be removed by, by election but he cannot, he is not appointed by election.

J.W.Right.

R.G.Precisely. Yes.

A.C.10 degrees can remove the O.H.O. by a unanimous vote.

R.G.But it doesn't say that they,

A.C.But they don't appoint him.

R.G.They can only vote him out.

(Pause)

B.B.I have a good question though, if they vote him out, how do you get a new one?

(Laughter)

J.W.Ha Ha!

M.K.There's the point ...

M.K.We have, we have in the Constit...

G.M.Who appoints him? Because you see they vote him out then you have to have an election.

A.C.There's the rub.

M.K.We have something in the Constitution ...

G.M.Laughter...

M.K.which suggests that ...

G.M.I keep running into these little things!

M.K.... which suggests that there is something written or stated or remembered somewhere that really nobody in this room,

R.G.Knows about ...

M.K.... does or MAY know about, except the Caliph and perhaps, ah, one member of the Sanctuary of the Gnosis.

B.B.You know, there is one possibility that has been overlooked I think, and that's that within the office of the O.H.O. there is a genuine relationship to the Order of Thelemites.

G.M.OK

M.K.It's possible.

B.B.That would make sense, Crowley would think like that.

J.W.Now wait what, they are ...

B.B.He would...

J.W.They are two speci, in the Constitution of the Order of Thelemites.

B.B.However

J.W.They are spelled out as two specifically different organizations.

R.G.Yes.

B.B.Yea, but, ...

J.W.... at times the Order of Thelemites is directed ...

B.B.In other words membership in one does not mean membership in the other. However Crowley did think in a certain way and he might have seen the, ah, Order of Thelemites as a link between the A.·.A.', and O.T.O. in some certain sense.

J.W.Right! Oh of course.

R.G.Of course he did.

J.W.But the, idea is ...

B.B.But the idea of, no, the idea of ...

G.M.Yes but...

B.B.The idea of the head of the O.T.O. ah, being elected by the ranking A.·. A.·. members might make sense. In other words it might ...

A.C.It would make a tremendous amount of sense!

B.B.It might be true, it might be true. That might be the case.

J.W.(laughter) Except A.·. A.·. members are not supposed to know each other.

(All laugh)

M.K.It does sound like ...

J.W.So how are they vote ...

(All laugh)

J.W.How would you call the role?

M.K.It does sound like Crowley's type of thinking though.

B.B.No no, they, they don't know each other in that sense, but there always has been a, you know, like a Chancellarius. There was supposed to be you know, like a Chancellarius who was like a coordinator or secretary.

J.W.Hopefully we've had our last Chancellarius in Crowley's lifetime! (Laughs)

B.B.Its possible.

M.K.If however there is no real way to determine it.

B.B.Yorke would know. It would be a good question for Yorke before Yorke di.. goes away.

R.G.What we do know is, is so obvious though, what we do know is what's stated in the Caliphate letters which is that the Caliph is the O.H.O. It says it.

M.K.Mhmm.

R.G.It defines it. It's I think all we have to say on the subject.

M.K.And since there does seem to be a precedent of appointment based on that ...

J.W.Yes

R.G.Yes

M.K.... then it can take place in that fashion.

B.B.And then the other thing is, and this is, this is significant, um, even assuming, assuming anything we want, you're covered Grady, you're one of the best cases in history I think.

(Laughter)

B.B.Um, no really, because ok ...

G.M.Oh, keep a few random pieces of paper around.

(Laughter)

G.M.Ask Aleister Crowley interesting questions! Like, Gee Boss, I'm a little dumb, can you help me with a magickal motto? Well yea!

(Laughter)

B.B.That's right, can you help me with my math?

(Laughter)

G.M.Can you help me with my math Daddy? Brrrrrrrrr (laughs) god.

B.B.No, but this is very interesting. Um, ok, Germer was the only member on the list ah, on the Order of Thelemites charter. So therefore at Crowley's death he was the only member of the Order of Thelemites. However, after Crowley's death, he did forward the ah, election ah notification to you.

G.M.That's correct.

B.B.He acknowledged you as a member.

J.W.As a Zelator.

G.M.That is correct. And ah spoke in terms of A.·. A.·. which I thought of in terms of Motta's claims of A.·. A.·.

J.W.IF he knew ...

J.W.Sure ...

M.K.And in any case a senior member.

G.M.That's it. (laughs)

J.W.But he, ah he seems to um, it seems that Germer gave Motta um also a membership in the Order of Thelemites.

G.M.Quite, but, but, at a later date. That's what I am getting at. I mean if Motta wants to go around swinging his ass about A.·. A.·. you might remind him of who is his superior in terms of time.

R.G.Right.

J.W.Yea but of course he is you know, ...

G.M.(laughs) Oh I am just being ...

J.W.Motta being an Ipsissimus Grady, I think you ...

R.G.Laughs

G.M.(Laughs) Ah, you can tell him he's a mahatma. Ah did, in ah, I know he changes some of those, like you were ah, thoughtful enough to give me some of his advance prefaces which he later changed.

M.K.(aside) You got that one from the living room?

R.G.Mhmmm

G.M.There's one of them where he said not only are there mahatmas, I am one myself.

M.K.(aside) Want to keep it?

G.M.And did that ever get into print.

R.G.(aside) Like I said, I'll take half of it, ...

J.W.Ask Gurney,

G.M.Oh uh Gurney will probably know.

J.W.Gurney

J.W.Gurney, this is no time for ...

R.G.(aside) Like I said ...

M.K.(aside) Well, well, like in another week ...

J.W.Michael ... (laughs)

A.C.These guys are like, don't, not on tape!

J.W.Anything ...

R.G.Oh, true ...

J.W.Anything else guys?

A.C.What are you out of your mind?

J.W.Can we get back to Grady's question?

R.G.Yes!

J.W.Did Motta actually say that, uh, there are many mahatmas, in fact I am one myself?

R.G.Oh yes.

J.W.Was that in print?

G.M.Was that in print, did that go in the book that printed?

J.W.Did that go in ...

G.M.Or was it only in one of those prefaces that he didn't print? See he changed some of those prefaces.

R.G.No, I think that's, isn't that in the commentary to the Book of the Law?

G.M.I ...

J.W.No!

G.M.I don't think so.

J.W.No, it would have been in, it was in 65.

G.M.I think it was, I'm sure it was in something ...

B.B.No, Jim says, Jim says he's a mahatma in his.

R.G.65! Commentary to 65.

J.W.(laughs)

G.M.Who?

B.B.Jim.

G.M.Oh, ah ...

J.W.Mini mahatma.

G.M.Mini mahatma.

A.C.(singing) He's a mahatma! You're a mahatma! I'm a mahatma! We're a mahatma!

B.B.But no, um ...

R.G.Jim you can check it tomorrow.

B.B.No, the point would be though is that um on Crowley's death he only had one person on his list, ok?

G.M.Mhmm.

B.B.And, uh, Germer was it. On Germer's death to our certain knowledge he only had two people on his list and you had seniority.

(Someone coughs)

G.M.Uh, well yea.

B.B.So ah, ...

R.G.So you're the head of the Order of Thelemites too.

G.M.By golly, by gor man it's beginning to look like that is the case, yes.

B.B.So um then, it would seem that, uh, there, it's worth investigating, it would seem that there is a relationship between the office of O.H.O., uh, this is really going the other way,

J.W.You better be careful because this way you're uh, opening up a whole new ...

A.C.You're stepping into a swamp with this thing, why don't we move on?

G.M.Yea, would you repeat that please?

B.B.OK

G.M.Yea, because you lost me on the turn.

(Several speaking at once)

A.C.Yea, the Constitution, you've gotten so far away from this Constitution ...

J.W.What we can do ...

B.B.Anyway it falls you're covered ok?

(Laughter)

A.C.You're a 10 Degree, nobody can argue with that.

G.M.(laughing) Either way I've got a helmet over my ass.

B.B.You're cool, so ya know um ...

A.C.You can sign yourself any damn thing you want. (Laughs)

B.B.I won't get into that.

(Laughter ... inaudible speech)

B.B.It is possible ...

J.W.I know but we have to, let's, let's, yea, let's leave that ...

R.G.But so what?

M.K.I would interpret that as the case, constitutionally.

R.G.That's up to uh, whoever to take care of.

J.W.Oh kaay. We're on uh, Twenty five Michael?

M.K.Yes ... twenty five ... the Electoral College possesses ...

B.B.Define it again.

M.K.one most singular ... hmm?

B.B.The that, The Electoral College is what we are going to be activating ok?

M.K.Ok. (Reading) "The Electoral College possesses one most singular power. Every 11 years or in the case of a vacancy occurring, they choose 2 persons from the IXth Degree who are charged with the duty of Revolution." I should read Twenty six to explain it. "Its the business of these persons constantly to criticize and oppose the acts of the Supreme and Most Holy King whether or no they personally approve of them. (Laughter from all) Should he exhibit weakness, bodily, mental or moral, they are empowered to appeal to the O.H.O. to depose him." (Laughter again from all)

A.C.Here's where it gets real sneaky in your case. (Laughter all around)

J.W.Grady, here's where you have uh, ...

A.C.Insurance.

R.G.You've got an out.

(Laughter)

M.K.(continuing) "But they, alone of all the members of the Order, are not eligible to the Succession."

R.G.This way you can be anything you want. Either way you can vote yourself out. Or depose yourself.

(Laughter)

A.C.Its called a priest's hole.

(Laughter)

G.M.Called a what?

A.C.Priest's hole.

G.M.Priest's hole.

M.K.I believe a summary of our discussion on that one was that the Electoral College would take that task upon itself when it actually does possess 11 members.

J.W.Or, no, that was one thing we wanted to leave open to discussion ...

G.M.Yea, uh, I wanted to get a little clarification on it. You say that this query, ok, the Electoral College, now uh, and uh what degree is that?

B.B.Fifth.

J.W.Fifth Degree.

B.B.That's the body that we want to try to implement this summer.

G.M.Ok what paragraph is Fifth Degree?

B.B.It's 15 on I believe ...

A.C.When it's fully operative there are 11 of them in, in that Electoral College.

J.W.(aside) It's not 15.

(Papers rustling drowns side comments)

J.W.It goes 7, 7 through 14. Or, or actually let's say um, 9 through 14.

B.B.Yea, in 9 its defined, and 10. Well its actually 11.

G.M.(reading) Fifth Degree ... oh what, paragraph 11?

B.B.yea.

A.C.Its numbered as paragraph 11 but the correction is uh,

B.B.No, it's still 11.

(Rustling paper and mumbling)

B.B.Yea. Uh no, we only get off here. Ok, so just read 11.

J.W.Yea, well 9 ...

A.C.Oh, you're right. Yea.

M.K.11 and 12 to get the details.

J.W.13 and 14.

M.K.Well, we get more, 13 is a pretty qualitative statement.

J.W.(sighs deeply) Oh boy ...

G.M.Oh somehow or other I got confused between talking about the IXth Degree and the Electoral College of the uh, Man of Earth.

J.W.Right ...

A.C.OK, the Electoral College choosing these people from the IXth, chooses two people from the IXth Degree ...

J.W.The Electoral College is the Lovers.

A.C.Who will no longer be eligible for the Succession.

B.B.That's where it is.

A.C.By this choice.

B.B.That's why the Senate knows the 9ths.

J.W.Right.

M.K.That's right.

G.M.Try again.

J.W.That's why the Senate knows the 9ths.

A.C.That's why the 5 Degree knows the 9ths.

M.K.But not the 6th or 7th. Only the Senate.

B.B.Well, uh ...

J.W.Well, at that point it becomes moot, because our biggest problem is the Man of Earth series.

A.C.Yea, yea.

R.G.Right.

G.M.Ok, well what paragraph is the Senate and the uh ...

J.W..: Very good, that's how we got it.

A.C.OK, uh, the Senate is covered in paragraph 7 through paragraph uh, 14.

R.G.So far. (Laughs)

(Door slams)

A.C.But we're referring here to uh ...

M.K.No no, the Senate starts at 11.

A.C.Ok.

B.B.Yea, its defined in 11 though, pretty much.

M.K.Paragraph 7 is uh, is general description of the Fifth.

A.C.Yea. And we're referring from paragraph 25.

G.M.Yea, that's why I'm trying to get these paragraphs together here. In fact uh, Bill, that would be a good thing. I'd like to see logically out like that, in other words its all very well to be talking over here about this, but then when this inner logic, these inner connections, that needs to be ...

A.C.Have you got a large piece of cardboard and a wide felt tip marker?

M.K.I've got a wide felt tip marker somewhere, I don't know about a large piece of cardboard.

A.C.And a wall. We could put a flow chart together tonight very easily, about how this thing works.

R.G.Turn a poster around.

(Inaudible comment)

J.W.(aside, laughs) You're gonna break my heart.

A.C.No.

(Laughter)

R.G.(aside) What?

R.G.Do I have a poster you can turn around?

M.K.You want a larger piece of paper? Why don't you start with this?

B.B.I'm trying to think if I have anything, I mean I have ...

A.C.Give me a good pencil.

B.B.Go ask, go downstairs and ask Mimi, I'll get, Mimi has like a huge drawing ...

R.G.Oh, poster board, yea.

A.C.Yea, in fact your knowledge of this is better, you could probably pull a flow chart out of your skull in uh ...

B.B.Well, I don't really think I should do one now, I think we should finish this review.

A.C.Yea.

J.W.Yea. Let's do it later.

(Mumbles by several ... inaudible)

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