Caliph Election Transcript

Ordo Templi Orientis

The 'Caliphate'
O.T.O. in the U.S.A.

Minutes of the Special Ninth Degree "Caliphate" Election
Held September 20/21, 1985

We know that we are not in a position to elect an O.H.O. All we want is a 'Caliph'
History of the
Lawyers and Historians: The 'Caliphate' versus the Truth?

 "You'll never, never regret it."
 HEIDRICK: I would like to step down from the stand and give it to Jim GRAEB,
    who I understand is wise enough not to run for the office. (laughter)
 GRAEB: First of all I pass to you a photocopy of the death certificate of our
    late "Caliph", Hymenaeus Alpha, 777.
 WOLFE: Is there a picture attached to it?
 GRAEB: No. I do this in commencement as a reminder to us all why we're
    gathered here today is that we no longer have a "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi
    Orientis. Grady's ashes are contained in the box which sits in the center
    of us, and for a number of reasons I took on responsibility for insuring a
    timely meeting of this sort, to elect a successor to the "Caliphate". I
    would state my principal goal, and the one I hope you all share with me,
    is that the new "Caliph" be elected unanimously, and that this body of
    IX°s who act as trustees for the OTO come out of here unanimously and are
    able to declare to our roughly seven hundred members that we all stand
    united behind the new "Caliph" of Ordo Templi Orientis.
    While I continue with my preamble, I have renounced the "Caliphate" and have
    agreed to act as arbitrator and to conduct this meeting, to count the
    votes and otherwise act in the capacity of chairperson of this meeting.
    Pursuant to which I sent out a letter to you all, and each of you received
    one directly announcing this meeting. I believe it proper that my actions
    in this regard be reviewed by this body at this time and accordingly, the
    first item on the agenda that I would request for our consideration is;
    Who is and who is not a valid member of the IX° Ordo Templi Orientis? We
    are first faced with Michelle, who has presented a written initiation from
    Grady McMurtry as IX°. She was asked three times, it was obviously
    conferred upon her.
    There are people standing outside our very doorway who hold copies of Modes
    and Emblems. There are people with various other claims, spouses of IX°s,
    ex-spouses of IX°s, et cetera. The first item for consideration is; Who
    should be present at this meeting? Therefore, I throw that open.
 HEIDRICK: May I offer a simplifying thought? The Modes and Emblems can be
    acquired in many ways, some legitimate, some accidental and some illicit.
    But the knowledge is one thing that makes a IX°. This is a particular
    organization, and whether they have the knowledge of the IX° or whether
    they are a member of this organization is not necessarily the same thing,
    in that degree. I suggest that unless a person can come forward showing a
    paper recognizing them to be a IX° dated after april of 1977 and signed by
    Grady Louis McMurtry either in that name or Hymenaeus Alpha, there is no
    point in even considering them.
 GRAEB: Why do you say 1977?
 SECKLER: Yes, why the date?
 HEIDRICK: Because at that time the Supreme Council in one of its first
    meetings set a cut-off date with I believe about a three month margin
    during which anyone who claimed to be a member of Ordo Templi Orientis had
    to come forward and represent that claim. It was used in the instance of
    the Motta suit, to argue against Motta being a member, since he was
    informed, and we have two members present who were informed and decided
    eventually to come forward. There was a fact that we were not obliged to
    recognize after that date, and that would be a possible modification that
    I might offer, but my offer is as it stands, if Grady signed something
    making a person a IX° after April of 1977, let's accept them. If not,
 GRAEB: Well, there's a preamble that the Supreme Council gave me that pretty
    much overrides the power to conduct this meeting. IN WRITING THAT NOTICE I
    asserted that I don't think I would be infallible, I gave that up years
    and years ago. Accordingly, I said I would be over-ruled by the jury of
    IX°s present at this meeting, and I think it would be proper to go over
    those items. Initially, I had named on the letter, the Supreme IX° letter,
    everyone who is present in this room at this time, excepting Michelle
    Ripple, who is accepted at this meeting. I now ask whether there is anyone
    here who would care to change my unilateral action, in saying that we and
    only we present in this room are members of the IX° Ordo Templi Orientis.
 HEIDRICK: Well, I think it's a matter if they can come forward with the
 GRAEB: The second item I have unilaterally requested was for
    nominations to be submitted to my P.O. Box no later than September
    seventh. I recieved one late, from Helen, towards Bill Breeze. The
    long and short of it is that everyone in this room has been
    nominated twice for the office of the "Caliphate", all members of
    the IX°, including you, Michelle. Additionally, James Eshelman and
    William Breeze have both recieved two nominations for the
    "Caliphate". I have unilaterally set the September seventh deadline
    as the deadline date for nominations, and I hereby ask whether
    anybody would like to re-open nominations for the candidacy at this
    time. Otherwise, my unilateral decision would stand.
 PARSONS: Yes, I'd like to make a nomination.
 GRAEB: Okay.
 PARSONS: I'd like to nominate Jim Eshelman.
 GRAEB: No, he's already been nominated. Jim Eshelman and Bill Breeze have
    both recieved two nominations. Persons eligible at this time for the
    "Caliphate" are limited to those persons present in this room together with
    James Eshelman and Bill Breeze.
 (members explain the above to each other, mostly inaudibly)
 SECKLER: I'd like to ask a question.
 GRAEB: Surely.
 SECKLER: I did not expect a nomination because I was not asked.
 GRAEB: Every person in this room has been nominated for the office of "Caliph".
    Including me. I continue--
 SECKLER: This may be snatching at gnats, but I thought that usually in a
    political situation, if you're going to nominate a person you would ask
 GRAEB: Again, essentially Grady left me the rest, residue and remainder and I
    considered it my duty and obligation to carry on until a proper successor
    could be elected. On September seventh I arbitrarily set a mail cut off
    date pursuant to those instructions. I've recieved adequate and valid
    nominations listing every member of the IX° present, all eleven people, I
    can read the list of names if you'd like, together with James Eshelman and
    Bill Breeze, who recieved two nominations each and are eligible for the
    "Caliphate". No other member at this time of the Ordo Templi Orientis is
    eligible to be elected to the office of "Caliph". My order will stand unless
    there is anyone present who would like to have me change that.
 HEIDRICK: I'm satisfied with it, but after that I should suggest that you ask
    if anyone wishes to withdraw from the race, because that might simplify
    the first ballot.
 GRAEB: No, I want to get everybody in the door first. Accordingly then,
    no one wishes to change my unilateral decision for nominations.
    Accordingly, all members of the IX° together with James Eshelman and
    William Breeze have recieved two nominations, and only these persons
    have recieved two nominations for the office of the "Caliphate".
 PARSONS: I want to nominate Jim Eshelman.
 GRAEB: He is nominated, he already is eligible. They've already recieved two
    nominations, the nomination seconding is no longer required, therefore,
    there are thirteen (nice coven number) people nominated. I, as I said
    earlier, renounced at the Supreme Council meeting the office of "Caliph".
    The next item that I unilaterally decided, which I again submit to your
    review since I don't claim infallibility, I gave that up years ago, is
    this--to make a short story a little long, folks, Grady left a seven
    hundred member Ordo Templi Orientis with us folk, the IX°, having the
    voting rights in this organization. I think that it is incumbent upon us to
    deliver the Ordo Templi Orientis the next "Caliph", in one piece. I consider
    it incumbent upon me to do so. Accordingly, there is a chance at this time
    that certain members of this body--that is, the Ordo Templi
    Orientis--might leave the O.T.O. as a result of our decision. In order to
    prevent schism and to insure a very simple matter of mathematics--to
    insure that at least a majority of the vote came with us, I unilaterally
    have set a requirement that the next Calpih be elected by majority. The
    by-laws indicate a plurality, but are unclear. As a matter of
    interpretation I consider them to require a majority election which would
    entail multiple votes if necessary, and that the "Caliph" would not be
    elected by less than six of the eleven people present in this room. This
    will insure, as a matter of simple mathematics, that more than half of the
    O.T.O. will go along with the new "Caliph". (many simultaneous outcries)
    Does anyone here wish to raise--
 HEIDRICK: I wish to raise an objection.
 GRAEB: Okay.
 HEIDRICK: I feel that although you are right about the majority of a
    plurality, it's not enough. I think that the election here should not be
    sudden death, that is, multiple ballots should not eliminate any
    candidate, and I think further that the election should be allowed to run
    until we're either dead exhausted or there's no more than two dissenting
 SECKLER: You mean that we're going to have a lot of straw votes.
 HEIDRICK: I mean straw votes.
 GRAEB: I will get into the matter of the manner of conducting the election
    after I go through those actions which I unilaterally set forth.
 HEIDRICK: ... there is an alternative request ...
 GRAEB: Since I just sat there drinking cognac ... (there is much inaudible
    speaking in the background) Does anybody here object to my requirement of
    having a majority of IX°s elect the next "Caliph"?
 HEIDRICK: Only the nature of the majority and the nature of the eliminations.
 WOLFE: I don't think six is good.
 MORTON: I don't either.
 GRAEB: As you recall, my letter said unanimous action--here, in the second to
    the last line. Does anybody here object to the straw vote procedure?
 DUQUETTE: I object to the staying into the wee hours until we get a unanimous
    vote. The history of this particular organization is one that most
    meetings have gone on for hours and hours and hours until everybody is
    weak and their judgement is not good. In a Thelemic organization I think
    the fact that we demand unity of thought even among the IX° members is
    completely absurd. I think a simple majority is all we need. I even
    disagree with the straw vote.
 GRAEB: Well, once again, does anybody here wish to voice objection to
    my imposing the requirement that there be at least a majority vote?
    I don't know about people catching planes and things like that but
    I've got to work tomorrow morning, and if it takes--I feel that
    Grady making me IX° I've got a responsibility to everyone in this
    room to the next "Caliph". And if it takes me all, excuse the
    espression, goddamn night to do it and do it right and have to go to
    work without sleep tomorrow, I will do it. And I'm opening a store
    tomorrow morning.
 SECKLER: I'm of the same opinion. However long it takes us.
 GRAEB: Well, I will state as chair that I do not want to see this evening's
    meeting taken to a point where it's vote by exhaustion and we'll vote
    anybody in just to get out of this room. By the same token, I don't really
    intend to--candidly, my duty is to conduct a fair election and I'm not
    going to pre-empt it prematurely so that we are not in any way forced into
    a sudden death election. I will not allow that to happen. If we all get
    tired and judgement becomes impaired, I suggest we adjourn until tomorrow.
    The business of electing a "Caliph" for life position in the Ordo Templi
    Orientis--if it takes us a half hour, fine, if it takes us more than one
    day, fine. It's certainly not a matter to be taken lightly, and the folks
    out there will not take our decision lightly and I don't take it lightly.
    While I concur with no battle to exhaustion, I do...yield the floor to
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: Is it going to be a secret ballot?
 GRAEB: We'll come to the manner of election in a moment. We will as soon as
    we come to admission to this room, and then if weld like to move to
    another location.
 SECKLER: Does admission mean voting rights?
 GRAEB: No. Let me tick off my agenda one item at a time. We haven't
    gotten to manner of election yet but my guess is that we will
    probably end up with a secret ballot.
 : Okay, the vote in question, what kind are you--
 GRAEB: Yes, in fact I think that we should all sit and chat about how
    we wish to conduct this election. I see merit in the straw vote
    procedure and I certainly see merit in ample discussion before we do
    anything, and no sudden death play-offs. This is not a game. We're
    electing the next "Caliph" of Ordo Templi Orientis.
 : Even if it takes us three months.
 GRAEB: Right, even if it takes us three months.
 : Some of us have to go to work Monday morning.
 SECKLER: This is more important than anything!
 : Well, I have to go to work Monday morning.
 GRAEB: Great, then in the interest of expedition, again I ask--does anybody
    object to my imposition of a requirement of a majority vote?
 HEIDRICK: Witht he reservation that it be further modified.
 GRAEB: Bill Heidrick's comment noted. I move on to the next item---
 WASSERMAN: Well wait, have we decided what it is?
 GRAEB: No, it's got to be a majority vote. It takes at least six noses to
    vote in the new "Caliph". In other words, four people can't do it,
    four-three-three ...
 HEIDRICK: Right. How many more it takes, we haven't decided. Jim is reviewing
    the things that he has imposed upon us and asking if we accept them. And
    then, we can always add more to them.
 GRAEB: Next thing is, I said that no one was to be allowed to the meeting
    except the people listed on the document--this matter needs to be
    reviewed. We agreed to admit Michelle Ripple, Tony lannotti was named on
    the paper, we have two candidates not present.
 HEIDRICK: May I raise a point of order? We are in violation of the by-laws if
    the Grand Secretary General is not present at this meeting.
 GRAEB: The Supreme Council gave me essentially autocratic powers to
    conduct this meeting and election. I have unilaterally imposed that
    no one, with the exception of Tony lannotti, be present at this
    meeting, I now ask whether ...
 : Does his presence give him a voting right?
 WOLFE: Then why should his name even be present among the names on here?
 GRAEB: Accordingly, does anybody here wish to delete Tony Iannotti from
    the list of people--(arguing in background)--we need a show of
    hands, please.
 SECKLER: Is he a IX°?
 GRAEB: No. Let's just count noses here ...
 HEIDRICK: ... bylaws of the corporation ...
 GRAEB: It appears that there is at least a substantial interest here. Let's
    open it momentarily for discussion and then I will call a quick vote.
    Okay, there appears to be a quick majority saying that Tony should be
    excluded. Lola, the floor.
 WOLFE: All right, at the IX° meeting that was held two years in the past when
    I was Grand Secretary General, during those parts of the meeting that
    pertained to IX° business, for example, when all the IX° members ate the
    bread and salt. I was excluded because I was not a IX°. I see no reason
    for Tony Iannotti to be in here. If he is not a IX° he should be excluded
    unless there is some pertinent reason at some point in this meeting for
    his being in physical attendance, and I don't care about estate laws, I
    care about the IX°.
 GRAEB: Andrea, the floor.
 LACEDONIA: I was just going to say that the only reason I can think of
    for excluding him is in thinking that he can possibly go to the
    other members and say "Well, such-and-such said this and
    such-and-such said that." If we are concerned about that and he
    should be present I think there'd be no problem in swearing him to
    absolute secrecy, that anything that went on in this room remain so.
 WOLFE: What would be a positive reason for him being here?
 LACEDONIA: Other than the incorporation, I'm just giving a reason how we can
    do it.
 GRAEB: James Wasserman had his hand up.
 WASSERMAN: Number one is, this either is or is not a IX° working. If it is a
    IX° working, then no one but a IX° can get in, except for interviews.
 GRAEB: We'll get to the candidates later.
 WASSERMAN: The question I raise is whether we could not fulfill the
    obligations in the by-laws by at least announcing to Tony that the
    election process is complete and that we have elected a new "Caliph".
 GRAEB: Bill, you have the floor.
 HEIDRICK: First of all, I think it's improper to just simply run over the
    by-laws without even trying to figure out some way to suit them, and
    you've come in the right direction. I believe that our precedent was to
    exclude non IX°s only when we were performing a ritual or making a review
    of the conduct of IX°s. Not when we're doing something that is important
    to the Order as a whole, but only when we're doing something that is
    within the Sanctuary entirely. Now Tony, as the Grand Secretary General,
    is responsible for recording what we do. And to make that record moment by
    moment, or we can ask him to simply be here. The thought is simply that
    the by-laws so say that the Secretary is to record the meeting and we need
    to either provide him with the tapes of the meeting or have him be here
    and I see little difference.
 : Is this meeting being taped?
 : Why?
 : And who is going to possess the tapes this time?
 : And where is the vote on that question?
 SECKLER: How come we're taping this?
 GRAEB: I'll recognize that some one stood to their opinion on ...
 SECKLER: It seems to me that it comes down to a very practical issue, if you
    can just please leave your emotions out of this whole thing, every one.
    That we possibly should have a secretary to record things, to take care
    that they are reported, and to me it doesn't matter who the secretary is.
    This is a very important meeting, we may not do this for many more years,
    but I think we do need a Grand Secretary General. The Grand Secretary
    General might not have been a IX°, but we need him. I think anyone's
    capable of taking minutes of this meeting.
 PARSONS: Would you take the minutes?
 SECKLER: No, I would not. I've got other things to do.
 GRAEB: Michelle to the floor.
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: I think that Bill Breeze--
 GRAEB: Well, let's get to the candidates in a moment. If I may, let's deal
    with them one at a times.
 SECKLER: I want them to hear what's going on.
 GRAEB: I unilaterally name the Grand Secretary General to Shirine.
 MORTON: It is appropriate in other offices for an officer of a board to give
    his authority to some one to act as his proxy, and I do not see why we
    couldn't ask Tony to come in and ask which one of us he would like to act as
    the GSG. My nomination would be Lola since she has been the GSG.
 : I second that.
 MORTON: But I do not see why Tony could not be asked to come in and be asked
    if he would approve this action of the council of IX°s.
 : I second that, could we take a vote?
 GRAEB: Wait a second, Helen had her hand up. Go ahead, Helen.
 PARSONS: I think the question comes down to a point that's been raised
    before; are we a magickal organization or are we merely a corporation
    under the State of California?
 SECKLER: We are both.
 HEIDRICK: Are we so incompetent we can't be both? (debate follows, inaudible)
 GRAEB: I agree. It's easy enough, I think, if we have GSG delegate their
 : I was simply seconding Shirine's proposal that we call the GSG
    forward at this point to delegate his corporate responsibilities so
    we can omit that scope of our meeting so that we do provide a
    statement or mandate and that we take a vote on this matter and
    bring this destruction to an end.
 GRAEB: All right then, we shall.
 PARSONS: Why can't a IX°--(interrupted by everybody talking at once)
 GRAEB: It seems to be the general concensus that Tony should be brought
    in, a IX° should be appointed with the task of counting the vote and
    otherwise acting as Grand Secretary General. Therefore, an
    overriding of my unilateral exclusion of Tony at this meeting. Can I
    have a hand vote as to the general drift here? How many people want
    Tony actually in the room?
 PARSONS: Will Tony be requested or asked to appoint a secretary?
 WOLFE: On the stray chance that he might say no, I mean, I'm still against
    his being here on the grounds that this is a IX° working.
 GRAEB: Technically, the duty was delegated to me, but I'll let you do it if
    you'd like to. Michelle?
 MICHELLEE: (unintelligible)
 GRAEB: Right. I'm going to try and bifurcate this down to the separate rule
    books. First question--by show of hands--how many people wish to override
    me so that Tony is present throughout the entire meeting?
 HEIDRICK: Let's have that in English.
 GRAEB: In English, how many people wish to override--countermand--my
    unilateral action of including Tony throughout the meeting? How many
    people think that Tony should not be physically present throughout the
    entire meeting? That is a majority vote, as my letter stated, I would be
    overruled by a majority.
 HEIDRICK: But then we have the question of the by-laws requiring the presence
    of ...
 GRAEB: Right. Accordingly, I ask for an indication. How many people would
    like to have Tony brought into this room so that he will delegate his
    responsibilities as secretary at this time--seven. There seems to be a
    majority agreeing to bring Tony in for a few minutes. And a second. Go
    ahead, Helen.
 PARSONS: Are we requesting him or asking him to appoint a proxy?
 GRAEB: The by-laws of Ordo Templi Orientis state that the vote should be
    counted by the Grand Secretary General. Under California corporate law,
    corporations' minutes of members meetings are recorded by the
    secretary of the corporation. That is Tony.
 PARSONS: This is not a member's meeting.
 GRAEB: Yes it is, under California State law.
 LACEDONIA: That's what it said on my mail-out, membership meeting.
 SECKLER: This business of appointing some one--I think that if anyone in the
    room would like to do it, they can just do it.
 GRAEB: It would be wise as a matter of informing the California State
    corporations, as an attorney of corporate law that Tony come in and
    delegate that duty to a member here.
 : Why not specify Lola as the individual?
 HEIDRICK: Why not ask the GSG; as a matter of taking the simplest course
 GRAEB: OKAY. We've got eleven fine people here, we've got a lot to do, and
    there's going to be a lot of discord, we're not all going to agree on
    everything. But let's all at least agree, you see, we're getting over our
    minor problems at the beginning. I think it would behoove us in
    general--I'm just trying to expedite this thing, I don't want it bogged
    down in a forty-five minute discussion--at this point, if we were to
    request that Tony come in and appoint a --do we want to pre-select that
    person? Okay, and suggest Lola. It separates the two rules, too.
 PARSONS: May I ask that Lola go out and make the request to Tony?
 : That would be easiest.
 GRAEB: Wait! Before you do, to all extent possible, let's act together.
    What's the general feeling towards Lola going out to ask Tony to pass his
    counting and secretarial duties to Lola and that he be excluded from the
    meeting? Six. That's a majority, therefore, I ask formally, are there any
    further discussion requests?
 HEIDRICK: We're overlooking something. That any magickal act needs a witness.
 : We have eleven witnesses.
 GRAEB: So we'll bring him into this room and ask him.
 HEIDRICK: We'll have no witness present because we're all participants.
 : Let's meet him at the threshhold. (laughter)
 GRAEB: When it gets to the tapes--how many people are against the tape
    recorders, by the way?
 GRAEB: I see four, I see a majority not opposing. I'm personally in favor,
    there should be some kind of record. I agree as to control over those
    tapes. I don't want long-playing reccrds made of them.
 : Who's in charge of the tapes?
 SECKLER: I think the GSG should be.
 : We just excluded him.
 GRAEB: Order. Some of you are not used to our quasi-parliamentary
    procedure. I apologize. I am halfway familiar with what I'm doing
    for seven years now. If the question of control over tapes'
    arises--I can kill two birds with one stone. Helen quietly suggested
    that since we have two recording devices going, why doesn't the
    secretary's delegate, who looks like Lola, and myself as Chancellor
    take custody of the tapes. That insures custody and also a
    separation between chairmanship and voting. Could I have a hand vote
    on that?
 HEIDRICK: With secrecy.
 GRAEB: With secrecy. All right. Unanimous passage. (cheering)
 HEIDRICK: I want a buck and a half dues credit for each cassette. (laughter)
 MORTON: Before we go further on with this meeting, when I was at a
    meeting recently where there were hot and heavy issues, I would like
    to make a resolution or a suggestion, that if things get really hot
    and heavy, that whoever feels that it's gone beyond the point of
    rational discussion, if they can ask for a moment of silence. I
    would like to have this group agree on the fact that should we get
    involved, that somebody can yell "Silence!" and that will mandate us
    to silence for a minute or two.
 HEIDRICK: I think that that one person would have too much power.
 GRAEB: I agree. I suggest that I be in charge of the power to stand up and
    say "hush" and we'll have silence if it gets too intense. Why don't we
    request that Lola, with your permission, we ask Tony into the room--
 MORTON: Can I go out for a cigarette?
 GRAEB: You want to adjourn for a few moments? Okay, but let's get this out of
    the way first.
 PARSONS: Can we send for some water?
 GRAEB: Why don't we do both? We can request Tony and a drink of water. (there
    is a break, people leave the room and hold discussions about tape
    recorders) I would like to indicate that nothing is off the record in this
    meeting. Everything the eleven IX°s in this room do is on the record.
 HEIDRICK: I request that the chair be more clear about the commencement of
    the termination of an adjournment.
 GRAEB: Fine. (background chatter, Tony is summoned) Tony, we have-
 HEIDRICK: Good news and bad news.
 GRAEB: Unanimously agreed that we would like to keep this meeting
    solely with the members of the IX°. Accordingly, to comply with
    California State Corporation law, you, as the secretary of this
    corporation, also as our friend and GSG, we hereby request that you
    appoint Lola as your nominee to count the vote and otherwise record
    as secretary during this meeting.
 EVERYONE: Thank you very much. 93.
    (A motion is raised for a five minute recess, GRAEB calls for a vote, motion
    passes. GRAEB announces that it would be courteous to delay any discussion
    until all members return from the break. Continues)
 GRAEB: Order! It's 6:20. We have a conference room reserved at the Holiday
    Inn in Concord. It has not been paid for. They require $50 cash. I just
    spoke to them by telephone. They have an air-conditioned conference room,
    waiting for us at the Concord Holiday Inn. The meeting has now been called
    for a Concord Holiday Inn. Helen took the liberty of making reservations
    and I thank her. Should we move to Concord and--before this meeting
    commenced it was my consensus that the candidates and they only should
    be brought with us, perhaps also a blackguard.
 : Can the GSG be blackguard, as he should hear the results?
 GRAEB: Yes. So, tentative plan is--should we move to Concord? And pick a
    time, say, in an hour, to meet in Concord and reconvene. And whether we'll
    admit the candidates. Bill, you have the floor.
 HEIDRICK: I heard money mentioned. As Treasurer, I trust that I'm going to be
    instructed to make a disburseent? $50 doesn't seem realistic.
 GRAEB: I was just in telephonic conversation with an agent of the
    Holiday Inn and that individual assured me that they are reserving a
    conference room in the name of H. Parsons Smith, that it will cost
    us 50 clams to get in there and that it is air-conditioned. I have
    $50 cash on me.
 HEIDRICK: That's not the question. The question is how much does it cost? $50
    to reserve the room--(discussion)
 SMITH: Shh. At the time I made the reservation I waited two weeks and then
    confirmed with the GSG and the Chancellor before I confirmed the
    reservation, and I informed both of you that the cost would be $50, there
    may be a tax on that, for use for an indefinate number of hours.
 HEIDRICK: All I'm asking is if this is verified--- (they assure him
    that it is, discuss method of payment) ---I want to find out if
    there is anything here that is beyond the $50. Did anyone ask?
 GRAEB: Yes.
 SMITH: Yes.
    (GRAEB spells out conditions --$50 for room, $50 to enter it,
    possible total of $100. Much discussion.)
 WOLFE: Why don't we call them? (five minute adjournment)
 GRAEB: This is the chairperson recalling at 5:33 on September 21st, 1985 ev,
    the 81st year of the Aeon, the day before the autumnal equinox. Mr.
    Heidrick, did you talk to the hotel?
 HEIDR1CK: Yes, and this version is $50 from three pm to whenever and there is
    some sort of hotel tax which I take to be less than $10, but frankly I can
    see no reason on my own behalf to move. (seconded by Wasserman)
 GRAEB: Next item on the agenda is going to Concord. Mr. Wasserman had his
    hand up first.
 WASSERMAN: I would apologize for bringing the matter of my own background up
    in a meeting like this, but I was really taught to respect my elders and I
    would really feel it incumbent on myself to do Helen and Phyllis' wishes
    as to what would make them the most comfortable.
 SECKLER: I move that we adjourn to Concord because it is air-conditioned and
    much more comfortable and conducive to our circumstances.
 GRAEB: Can I have a straw vote? Who wants to go to Concord? Seven. Before we
    take a formal vote, let's raise it for discussion. Bill?
 HEIDRICK: I can't conceive that Concord is going to be as comfortable as
    here. We'll have air conditioning there which will be unpleasant and
    chilly, this room is warm and comfortable and we have the chairs that we
    prefer that we're sitting in, if we go over there we're going to have some
    sort of junky hotel furniture and an inclement environment.
 DUQUETTE: Fat people get hot easier. (Laughter) And sterile as the
    environment might be, it just might make us put our nose to the
 MORTON: If we do move this meeting to Corcord I would like to see it
    resumed as quickly as possible with as little interruption as
    possible. I would like to see this meeting get over.
    (Discussion on time, food, etc. Lacedonia suggests a second blackguard
    to bring Chinese food. Helen and Phyllis announce that they have
    cheese and crackers.)
 HEIDRICK: I would just like to go on record as saying--(everyone interrupts
 GRAEB: Order! As chair of this meeting, I, James T.--James Tiberius
    GRAEB, temporary X° until someone else is elected, per Helen Smith I
    might add, who wrote me a letter saying James T. GRAEB, Chancellor,
    X° OTO--I think we're going to take a forty-five minute adjournment,
    so why don't we jump in our cars, and why don't we bring Eshelman
    and Breeze, who are the two candidates, and we're going to be out of
    here so quick that--(people ask for rides)--straw vote, please?
    Nine. Open for discussion?
 HEIDRICK: I just think it's ridiculous. With the time we've spent discussing
    this we could have finished the meeting. (People begin leaving, GRAEB
    calls them back, preparing to take vote)
 end of side one
 GRAEB: By the law of the State of California, they're going to want it on the
    record. This is James GRAEB, chairperson of the meeting, speaking loudly
    to try and get our attention. I move that this meeting of the Supreme
    Council of Ordo Templi Orientis be moved 'till 6:30 pm at the Concord
    Holiday Inn, in the conference room there, that the only persons to go
    will be the members present at this meeting together with James Eshelman,
    William Breeze and Tony Iannotti, details to be worked out by the
    Chancellor. Do I hear a second? (several second)
 : I have a question. Is this the Supreme Council?
 GRAEB: Yes. No. It's the Supreme Council and--(order temporarily lost,
    Heidrick has a suggestion, some one else has a question.)
 HEIDRICK: Jim, you've been very dilligent and you've not really used the
    power that you need to use as arbitrarily as you--
 GRAEB: I'm going to use it in a second if everybody doesn't sit down in a
    chair. All right, sit down in your chairs, we have a motion on the floor,
    parliamentary questions--I have to yield to the damned things--are there
    any other questions? I call for the vote. (disorder & chaos)
 HEIDRICK: You can't recognize questions after a vote has been called. Proceed
    with the vote.
 GRAEB: Folks..ORDER! You're watching a breakdown of the parliamentary
    process. Let's take a second, we're all hot, we all want to go to
    Concord, we're still going to get there at 6:30. Now to answer your
    question, the Supreme Council-- Grady being actually in that box,
    we'll take Jim Eshelman and Bill Breeze with us, and remember that
    the Supreme Council will be present. The reason I've yielded to this
    question is that I wish to point out that we are not bringing the
    Electoral College with us. Accordingly, I will repeat for everyone's
    convenience. We have a motion seconded by Lon DuQuette to move this
    Meeting to--
 : If you'll listen to the tape you'll see that you called this a Supreme
    Council meeting. I'm only trying to--
 GRAEB: Good enough. I rephrase. I move that this meeting of the IX° members
    of the Ordo Templi Orientis together with James Eshelman, William Breeze
    and Tony Iannotti be moved to the Concord Holiday Inn, said adjourned
    meeting to comence again at 6:30 pm, September 21st, 1985 ev. Lon DuQuette
 DUQUETTE: I, Lon DuQuette, second.
 GRAEB: Any questions? (No) Call for the vote? (Aye) Any abstentions?
 (tape is turned off, restarted.)
 GRAEB: Back on the record. This is Jaes T. GRAEB, it is now 6:51 pm,
    September 21st, 1985 ev, 81st year of the Aeon. All eleven members of the
    IX° Ordo Templi Orientis are present in person at the Holiday Inn in
    Concord, California. We are conducting a special meeting of these members
    for the purpose of electing a new "Caliph". I have a request from Phyllis
    which I think is appropriate, to do some reading from the manifesto to set
    a tone for our meeting and have consented to do so. I ask if there are any
 HEIDRICK: No objections from me.
 GRAEB: Phyllis, please proceed.
 SECKLER: I pass each of you a manifesto. You are all very acquainted, I'm
    sure, with the intimation with reference to the constitution. In the
    manifesto there is a great deal which we should keep in mind. Now why
    don't you pass to page two hundred if you'd like. I'm not going to read
    this whole thing.
    [Editorial note: quotes of Crowley's texts are left out.]
 WOLFE: You won't be able to tape over the whole thing, the tape ...
 GRAEB: Leave it off, I'll take adjournments for open door.
 SECKLER: A summary, very brief. One, devotion to the Order. Two,
    intelligence in apprehending the nature of it's teaching. Three,
    zeal in spreading the principles of the Order insofar as they
    theirselves understand them. Four, discretion in guarding of the
    Order's secrets. Five, six, seven; courage, honor, virtue. Eight,
    the utmost frankness and good faith between brethren is essential to
    the easy and harmonious working of our system. It's also a clause of
    the Third Degree. Nine, as aspirant, carry out all oaths made in
    previous degrees. Ten, authority and prestige in the Order are
    absolute, but while the lower grades give increase of privilege the
    higher degrees give increase of service. Power in the Order depends
    directly on the willingness to aid others. Eleven, tolerance is
    taught in the higher grades, so that no man can be even an inspector
    of the Order unless he be equally well disposed to all classes of
    opinion. Divine charity, the high toward the low or the rich toward
    the poor, the great towards the small. Thirteen, independence.
    Fourteen, good manners. Advancement in the Order depends almost
    entirely on the possession of such qualities. And is impossible
    without it. Fifteen, talent for government, firmness and quality,
    tact and good manners, dignity and high honor, and I hope that we
    can all keep this to our hearts as we choose tonight.
 GRAEB: I concur. (Applause)
 : Now, who took my briefcase? (Laughter, joking)
 GRAEB: Grady, in his last days, pretty well knew he was dying, and expressed
    to me concern over whether he had fulfilled his mission that Crowley had
    given him. I pretty well assured him to my understanding that Grady's link
    between Aleister Crowley and the eleven of us present in this room,
    including Phyllis and Helen. (loud crashing noise)
 HEIDRICK: You want to reconsider Helen?
 : Where's my briefcase? (laughter)
 GRAEB: Grady did, despite the little faux-pas that occurred on some
    simple, immaterial pieces of paper, was able to bring the eleven of
    us together in this room, and we are behaving quite civilly and
    courteously to each other, and I commend each of you for it. We have
    before us now the serious task of electing a new "Caliph" of the
    Ordo Templi Orientis. As I understand the tale, Aleister Crowley was
    Baphomet X°, O.H.O. of the Ordo Templi Orientis. He gave Grady
    certain papers naming him, in the case of an emergency, to exercise
    those papers and take over as X° and "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi
    Orientis. The office of "Caliph" is not mentioned in the blue
    Equinox Needless to say, it is, during the interim period, an office
    certainly equal to the X° and in many minds is also associated with
    an acting O.H.O. We are here for the purpose of electing a new
    "Caliph", unless you'd like to redefine the term and elect a Supreme
    and Holy King together with an O.H.O. It is my understanding, before
    you object, that an O.H.O. can only be elected by X°s and that we
    IX°s, unless we are acting in the role as the sole X° of the O.T.O.,
    do not have the authority to elect an O.H.O. tonight.
 : We can't take on more than we were given. We know that we have the order to
    elect a "Caliph".
 GRAEB: Yes, I concur. We can elect a "Caliph" tonight, which is--go ahead,
 WASSERMAN: I would think that just as a point to raise; the "Caliph" is the
    emergency O.H.O. until such time as we have a real O.H.O.
 GRAEB: A de jure O.H.O., I concur.
 WASSERMAN: Because that's what the U.S.Court said, that's what Crowley's
    letters said to Grady, and I think that's what we own. We own the
    "Caliphate". And we own a definition both from the U.S. Courts and from our
    prophet. But we also know that we are not in a position to elect an O.H.O.
 SECKLER: No, we're not. All we want is a "Caliph".
 GRAEB: Bill's on the floor.
 HEIDRICK: Well, it seems to me that we have two things to do, and we'll
    probably do them as one. We have without a doubt to elect the president
    of this corporation, and I think the other one might simply be defined
    as that particular X° known as the "Caliph". And we need not go into
    further detail.
 GRAEB: Well, "Caliph" is something more than just a X°. To my mind, the
    "Caliph" of Ordo Templi Orientis is X° of United States of America and
    de facto O.H.O. until such time as we are internationally--why don't we
    discuss it? For right now, like it or not, Grady's ashes remain in that
    box. I did the banishing ritual over his body. Several of you here
    helped with the send off. He left to the hands of the eleven of us from
    Aleister Crowley to us custodianship of the 93 current. That's what's
    critical to us. There's roughly twenty-five to a hundred people waiting
    back in Pittsburg for a phone call, six hundred people out there
    throughout the U.S. and Europe waiting for (interruptions as to exact
    number), I think the election of the "Caliph" is the notice for tonight,
    we can't ammend the by-laws. To, as one judge said on the record, to cut
    through the crap, there are three viable candidates for this office.
    They are, to my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong, James
    Eshelman, William Breeze and William Heidrick. Is there anyone else who
    seriously wishes to consider themselves as candidate for the "Caliphate"
    of the Ordo Templi Orientis?
 SMITH: You better speak up, Jim. Last chance.
 GRAEB: Which does not rule out that we may agree to elect some one else.
    Those are the three lead contenders right now for the "Caliphate". I've
    always been known for getting right to the point. Some of you have asked
    not to drag this meeting on. As I further understand it, this is not
    binding at all--
 : Was Helen seconding? (discussion) So what's the difference between Bill
    Breeze, Bill Heidrick and Jim Eshelman?
 GRAEB: It's my understanding, and I do not mean to denigrate Helen, or any
    of those persons here at the table, all of whom have been nominated,
    that those persons capable of possibly mustering a six [mysterious
    machine malfunction] person majority vote, are Bill Heidrick, Bill
    Breeze and Jim Eshelman.
 HEIDRICK: Wouldn't it be easier if you went around the table and asked each
    person if they wished to stand for--
 GRAEB: Would you all concur with me doing that in that procedure? (yes)
 SECKLER: I would prefer not to.
 WOLFE: I prefer at this time to not run.
 MORTON: I am not a candidate.
 HEIDRICK: I'm a sucker.
 DUQUETTE: I'm not a candidate.
 WASSERMAN: I'd prefer not to.
 GRAEB: I've already previously said that I will not run for the office of
    "Caliph" at this time.
 HEIDRICK: I take it the two other candidates are--
 GRAEB: James Eshelman and William Breeze are not waiting around in room 256
    because they (unintelligible, laughter). Accordingly, candidates de jure,
    de facto, are Bill Heidrick, Jim Eshelman and Bill Breeze. Let's count
    noses now, since I was taking the nominations.
 HEIDRICK: May I suggest that there are some measures be concluded before a
 GRAEB: We're not taking a vote, Bill. I've agreed that there's many measures
    to be taken before a vote. I hope you all concur with me. Bottom line is;
    I'd like the eleven of us to return to Pittsburg, California and announce
    that we unanimously agree. We, in a certain sense, well, Grady taught me
    as a kind of a combat soldier, and if we, the generals, don't stand
    intact, what's going to happen to our six hundred man army? We've got to
    come out of here united, or the Order itself is at stake. The IX°s are
    trustees of the Order, of their possessions. Granted, I've drafted a set
    of by-laws which also give us the voting rights, which to my mind is not a
    privilege, but rather, rank has its price. We all bear the burden of
    responsibility and Karmic responsibility of electing a successor to that
    office who can carry the 93 current through which Ra Hoor Khuit and the
    new Aeon can manifest. That's the purpose of our gathering tonight. I will
    state at the possibility of affronting, as I count noses, Bill Breeze
    would probably take on a first draft sudden death ballot. I would like to
    have more discussion than that in view of the candidates. I will give you
    candor and a fair election if I can do nothing else. At the risk of
    offending, Jim Eshelman has many fine characteristics to my mind, his
    scholarship and his loyalty and devotion to the Order. I see him also as
    being young and inexperienced at commanding. (Heidrick interrupts, citing
    that candidates should be present, III° oaths, etc. Discussion)
 HEIDRICK: You've expressed the negative opinion of one of the candidates
    and I think that that's improper in a chairman.
 SECKLER: I have a series of objections here that I would like to ask all
    three candidates.
 GRAEB: I understand, I'm just expressing my view which may or may not be
    confirmed by the others. I understand my obligations and will state this
    in front of the other members when they come, Bill. Mike?
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: Shall we call both candidates present at one time to address
    questions to all three at one time?
 GRAEB: I would suggest that we bring them in individually and then if we
    eliminate Bill Heidrick we'll bring them both in for a tie-off. I am in
    favor of Bill Heidrick's suggestion that we do not have a binding vote
    until such time as we've had more ample opportunity to talk to each
    candidate, get their views as to the "Caliphate", and in a sense, put our
    questions to them.
 : I will repeat what I said to Grady in his former body and I will repeat
    to this present body, among us here, that at the end of this meeting
    whoever comes out as "Caliph", I will support based on my obligation to
    Grady. (all enthusiastically agree)
 GRAEB: May we say that at this time that everyone here will unanimously
    support the next "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi Orientis? (yes) Okay, so let's
    figure out who we can all best live with. And who can steer this ship as
    best as possible?
 HEIDRICK: Jim, might I just offer a quick suggestion? There are a few things
    we should attend to before we get deeper into the election. The most
    important thing is the moment of determination of when the "Caliph" becomes
    the "Caliph". There are some purely technical matters that need to be
    settled before the "Caliph" enters into the office. I think before we begin
    the elective process we should decide when the "Caliph" enters office. Just
    to get it out of the way. May I just propose very simply that the "Caliph"
    would enter office at the moment of adjournment of this meeting unless the
    "Caliph"-elect requests a later time.
 GRAEB: I second, but may I suggest that upon election to the "Caliph" the
    "Caliph" would come into this meeting and take my chair. (several
    seconds) This is more personal than legal or anything else, Grady left
    me the rest, residue and remainder until I could find a "Caliph" to put
    their tail in this chair. And as soon as there is one, I'd like him or
    her to take it. They should become a member of this meeting at which
    point any of those three candidates mentioned; William Heidrick, William
    Breeze or James Eshelman. There is also going to be a vacancy on the
    Supreme Council, assuming we decide to keep the Supreme Council around.
 HEIDRICK: Just for formality's sake, I make a formal note of resignation in
    the event of winning the election at the point of election.
 GRAEB: Why don't we leave resignations till the time that we have a new
    "Caliph" in this room?
 HEIDRICK: Because I can't hold both offices at once if I'm elected.
 SMITH: I would like to suggest that we have candidates present during all
    discussion. (agreement)
 GRAEB: We've basically refined our field of study down to Bill Heidrick, Jim
    Eshelman and Bill Breeze. The question is in what order do we wish to
    interview the candidates? (everybody suddenly becomes an authority on the
    subject) I call for order, and before you speak, and before I shall be so
    presumptuous as to start interviewing candidates, is there any one who
    wishes to bring up discussion before we go directly to the matter of
    electing a new "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi Orientis?
 HEIDRICK: We haven't reviewed the final process of election but we could do
 : I would like to raise some questions as to what we're doing here before we
    bring the people down. We've limited ourselves to three people, we've
    decided that the name of the winner will be "Caliph", and what else does
    that mean? Do we need to define the office before we--
 HEIDRICK: I think we've also defined that he's the president of the current
 : And the question is; must this person be in the position to accept the
    term office that we've voted for the two officers, Treasurer and
    Secretary, while the previous "Caliph" was living, or does this "Caliph"
    have the right to, as the blue Equinox would seem to indicate, appoint
    his own Grand Secretary General and Grand Treasurer General?
 GRAEB: Since I'm chairing the meeting, I would like to bring the new
    "Caliph" into this room to express his ... his or her opinion on the
    matter, however, as currently structured the new "Caliph" could request
    resignation, will, as Mr. Heidrick suggested, become head of the
    California corporation and will, magickally speaking, become X° U.S.A.
    and de facto O.H.O. Ordo Templi Orientis instantaneously. At which
    point, if we're going to make by-law ammendments, or otherwise change
    the current functioning of the Ordo Templi Orientis, that's business
    that we should bring up to discuss with our "Caliph".
 SECKLER: I suggest that we do not make any changes until there's a new
    "Caliph". (agreement)
 HEIDRICK: It should be pointed out that any ammendments will also have to
    pass through the Supreme Council.
 GRAEB: Correct. Shirine, the floor.
 MORTON: Yes, there was one action that was taken in the interim which was the
    cessation of activities of the Southern California Lodge Heru-Ra-Ha ...
 HEIDRICK: No, that's not correct.
 GRAEB: Well, I understand the cessation of initiatory powers--
 MORTON: And I would like to see those powers re-established before we elect
 HEIDRICK: I think that's proper business for the new administration.
 WASSERMAN: My understanding of what happened to brother Lon is that it was a
    temporary thing awaiting the election of the new "Caliph".
 GRAEB: It is a matter for this members' meeting to be reviewed, if you want
    to hear the logistics ... it fell into the hands of the Chancellor per se
    according to current structure, I gave it to the Supreme Council, the
    Supreme Council gave it to this meeting. The only question, I request a
    show of hands, a straw vote kind of thing, do you wish to review the
    matter prior to the election of the "Caliph" or shall we go straight to the
    business at hand, no offense, Lon, which is the new "Caliph"? So, I
    rephrase, who would like to go straight to the "Caliph" matter--no offense
    to Lon? All right, unanimous. Helen, you've requested the floor.
 SMITH: This probably is out of order, but it should be brought to the
    attention. The eastern people, so I understand, were asked to put on the
    back burner initiations of any kind during the interim.
 WASSERMAN: Not to my knowledge. I called up and I asked before I initiated
    after Grady's death, and Bill as GTG told me it was fine to go ahead with
    the candidates I asked about.
 MICHELLE RIPPLE: After Grady died, he did say to me that everything was at a
    standstill until we found another O.H.O. (discussion)
 GRAEB: What he'd essentially said was no out of the ordinary, no jumps to
    IX°, if I may be so bold, standard initiations only. No it was just a
    freeze on things such as we IX°s making other IX°s,...
 HEIDRICK: If I could just put that on point, according to by-laws, I, as
    Grand Treasurer General, in that office, had to run things. And I felt
    that unless I had to act, I should only act in previously defined
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: I think we misunderstood that. We took it as no initiatory
    action whatsoever.
 GRAEB: That would therefore be my failure in communicating to you as
    Chancellor. No, it was just out of the ordinary initiations. If there's no
    further business I'd suggest ...
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: You're doing a great job.
 GRAEB: Yeah, here's to the temporary X°. By the way, I owe the title of
    temporary X° to Helen Smith, who wrote me a letter forgetting to put the I
    in front of the X, raising me to X°,...
 SMITH: Well you were just X.
 GRAEB: And then demoting me to IV before that! Anyway, back to the business
    at hand,--
 HELEN: I should like to suggest that both candidates, or all three
    candidates, be here at the same time. (chaotic discussion on procedure,
    voting, security, etc)
 GRAEB: Back to the business at hand and the tearing of paper, may I suggest
    that since Bill Heidrick is already present among us, I'd like to hear
    from all three candidates .... (dissention, chaos) The purpose of a
    straw vote now would be in showing that there is a vast majority in
    favor of one person, presumably with the purpose of cutting off the
    other candidates from speaking. (No) Correct me, then. What is the
    purpose of the straw vote? (discussion)
 SECKLER: It is impossible to even make a straw vote unless one knows more
    about the candidates. It's more in order to ask them questions, and find
    out how they stand on the issues rather than making straw votes ahead of
    time and which might just be based on emotional reactions or likes or
    dislikes. We have to understand how they stand on the issues.
 SMITH: I agree with Phyllis. We have to hear them.
 MICHELLE RIPPLE: Well, I think that from all the phone calls I've had, that
    everybody knew everything.
 GRAEB: I pretty much sat out of the discussions of the "Caliphate".
    Accordingly, I'm going to now is put up for a vote whether you wish to
    have a straw vote now or not. Does anybody wish to discuss the question of
    straw vote versus discussion before we take a straw vote? Michael?
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: I would just like to say that I think there is enough of a
    consensus that we want to hear more from the candidates at this point.
 GRAEB: Let me have a hand vote then, how many people would like to not take a
    straw vote and interview the candidates first before we even do that? Six,
    that's a majority. Anybody requesting to do this formally?
 WOLFE: Let's just phone 256 and get them down here. (chaos)
 GRAEB: We have now tentatively decided that we're not going to straw vote
    now, that we're going to have a discussion before we do any straw votes.
 HEIDRICK: We're going to get the other two candidates in here now so that
    it's fair. I've been here the whole time, they haven't, let's correct
    (Wasserman suggests a cigarette break while the candidates are being
    summoned, everybody enthusiastically agrees to the recess)
 GRAEB: I'll speak loudly enough to do it, I've done it enough in court. Do I
    have a concurrence from you then that we will bring both candidates into
    the room during our discussion and interviewing session? (Aye) Great, then
    I will make a phone call. Go have your cigarettes.
 end of side two.
 GRAEB: I again request that there be no off-record tonight. Even if it
    tires the listener I think we should stay on the record as much as
    possible. Our business at hand is too important. Let me bring you
    gentlemen both up to date. Our election tonight is essentially that of
    the "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi Orientis. We, the IX°s have pretty much
    concurred that the office of the "Caliph" is certainly the X° of the
    United States of America, and is a de facto while not de jure Outer Head
    of the Ordo Templi Orientis. We are here tonight first to elect a new
    "Caliph", at which point that person can take this chair, and conduct
    the remainder of this meeting. The three candidates who have a potential
    of mustering a majority vote, we need six votes to win,--
 HEIDRICK: No, we didn't agree on that. (discussion)
 WASSERMAN: Why don't we have this discussion in the absence of the
    candidates. I agree with Bill Heidrick, but I don't think this is a matter
    to discuss with the two non-IX° members present. I think we should conduct
    our interview, ask them to return to their room, and continue on with
 GRAEB: As chair, what is the opinion, forgive me, gentlemen (mumbles, and
    Phyllis comments on this) May I please have a hand showing how many people
    would like to reserve the matter of (election, stated in unclear fashion,
    Heidrick comments. Discussion) All right, I'll rephrase. As I understand
    your point, we've already decided that it would require a majority of
    noses here, six votes, to--
 HEIDRICK: No, my statement was that that is incorrect, the direct opposite of
    what you just said. I stated that we'd agreed, not to give you a hard time
    for stating that we need a majority instead of a plurality as the by-laws
    state, but there was a lot of discussion then reserving the question of
    just what sort of majority it would be for later decision. (discussion as
    to exact words to be used)
 GRAEB: It is my understanding, and I ask you all here present to correct me,
    to my understanding we have agreed that to prevent schism we need at least
    six, although we have not decided as to whether we need more than six.
 HEIDRICK: That was my understanding.
 GRAEB: Are we all unanimously in concurrence that we've agreed to at least
    six, and the discussion of more than six is still open for later
 : Since one of the candidates is already a IX° and has the right to be
    present in this room, I feel that the other two candidates should at
    least know this part of the meeting, in all fairness to all the
    candidates, what the majority vote should be, and I feel that they
    should be allowed to remain during this discussion.
 WASSERMAN: I disagree. Fairly, I think that Bill Heidrick is the only person
    recognised by our deceased "Caliph" to be present during this discussion. I
    think that fairness is not the issue here, the issue is magickal
    integrity, this is a IX° meeting, I agreed to vote in favor of the two
    candidates coming down for interviews. If any other discussion of their
    presence in the room is required, I would ask them to leave the room while
    we discuss it. I voted only for their interviews.
 HEIDRICK: It would make no difference if we decide how we vote after we have
    reviewed and interviewed--since there is this point raised, whether we
    need to talk about it or not, why don't we just make the interviews and
    then decide how we'll hold the election and then proceed.
 GRAEB: Without going formal, may I ask for a show of hands that we at this
    time go ahead and interview the three viable candidates for the "Caliphate"
    and dispense with the discussion of majority election? Unanimous
    concurrence for the time being. Accordingly, to bring you gentlemen up to
    date since one of you may well be the "Caliph" in the next hour--
 HEIDRICK: Six hours.
 GRAEB: Six hours, whatever the case may be, we have pretty much eliminated
    most of the parliamentary and preliminary matters. As you've already
    heard, we will require at least a majority vote. Possibly a
    super-majority for the election of "Caliph". We have decided that the
    three people in this room or the three people in the Ordo Templi
    Orientis capable of mustering at least a six nose vote are William
    Heidrick, Bill Breeze and Jim Eshelman, not in that order, just going
    around clockwise. Accordingly, we have also decided that it would be
    unfair to interview any one of you without the presence of all three of
    you. While we have not currently excluded anyone else here from being
    elected to that office, we've pretty much narrowed our decision to you
    three. Accordingly at this time we are going to commence with the
    interviews for the job. (laughter, applause) Essentially, you're in a
    Holiday Inn here in Concord, California (inaudible humorous comments),
    we have decided that we are going to try our darnedest to come out of
    here unanimously. We've decided that we're going to stand as the whole
    of the IX° Ordo Templi Orientis, you three candidates appear to be the
    most qualified to assume that office and we all want a "Caliph" that we
    can all live with. We have yet to decide exactly how we're going to
    interview you, et cetera, but we've brought brought you in early,
    welcome aboard. Bill Heidrick.
 HEIDRICK: I suggest we get right to it because it's taking quite a long time
    to go over some small matters, and we just open up by asking the
    candidates in whatever occasion suits the rest of us to make some
    statements setting forth what they believe to be their qualifications and
    their intentions.
 SECKLER: I have a series of questions here, strangely enough, forty-nine of
    them, which suggests that we all love each other, which I'd like to ask
    each candidate.
 GRAEB: May I as chair ask approximately how long you think this will take?
 SECKLER: This depends, I've tried to be quite searching in these questions so
    that if anybody is uncertain by the time these are done, we should be able
    to make up our own minds.
 GRAEB: Again, before you ask the questions, roughly an hour?
 SECKLER: I think.
 WASSERMAN: Per candidate?
 SECKLER: I don't know, it depends on how they answer.
 HEIDRICK: Could you just pose them jointly for the candidates?
 SECKLER: No. (cries of dismay) If we do one person at a time, we have a
    feeling for how that person will (Heidrick interrupts her, GRAEB silences
    him so that Phyllis may continue) If you would ask, for instance, I have
    here, state your name, your age, how long and so on, now if I asked you
    your name, then asked him and him, and then your age and yours and so on,
    it would get to be a muddle.
 HEIDRICK: Phyllis, can I respond? I have the utmost respect for you but we're
    not engaged in a grade school examination.
 SECKLER: Bill, I must know how these persons stand on the issues.
 HEIDRICK: I agree, and I suggest that you can address the issues, but if you
    proceed with this plan, no one else will.
 SECKLER: I think that as soon as I ask my questions, and if I have not
    covered any ground which you would wish to have covered, certainly it
    would be your turn, anybody's turn, to put in what they would like to
 HEIDRICK: Well, perhaps if we could open with statements by the candidates
    and proceed with either these questions or some other thing we will be
    here a little less longer--(discussion)
 SMITH: I move that we accept Phyllis' method of--(discussion) (there is a
    motion to accept the questions. Some would like to read the questions
    before they vote. Some object to the questions. This takes a few minutes.
    In the interest of harmony GRAEB suggests that the motion to vote on
    Phyllis' questions be withdrawn and that a mutual agreement be made)
 GRAEB: ... in favor of us agreeing as to how we're going to handle this
    process rather than doing it by parliamentary procedure. I would suggest
    that we have each candidate say their piece, then any of us present would
    be allowed to ask any questions we wish. Again, the manner of the election
    of a "Caliph" is not something to take lightly and while forty-nine--I think
    it will go quicker if we just get down to it and do it.
 HEIDRICK: After some general questions have been asked I'm sure there will be
    a time to consider a more exacting inquiry. We may find it unnecessary to
    ask quite a few of those questions.
 SECKLER: That's possible.
 GRAEB: Again, I don't feel quite comfortable with this (inaudible)--I'd like
    to take the three candidates, have them give a soliloquy as to what
    they're going to do as "Caliph"--"If Elected I Will"--at which point we go
    through one, two, three candidates, then I will open the floor to
    questions from the IX°. Essentially we shall cross-examine the candidates.
    First of all, by hand vote, do I have a concurrence as to my methodology
    in proceeding? Michael and Michelle Ripple, no response. Tentatively, I
    don't want to act without you. Tentatively, I'm going to have Bill
    Heidrick, Bill Breeze and Jim Eshelman each say their piece and then, if
    you will, we can cross-examine the witnesses. Okay? (yes)
 HEIDRICK: I also suggest that at the very end the candidates could ask
    questions of each other.
 GRAEB: I think that's a good idea. Are there any further discussions before I
    go ahead and commence the procedure? No further questions. All right.
    Bill, you're a IX°, Jim Eshelman, you're a V°, Bill Breeze, you're
    a P.I., as I understand it therefore--(several interruptions)
 HEIDRICK: (suggests that the candidate possessing the penny with the lowest
    date start first),... that way it's arbitrary and there's no imposition
    as to who goes first.
 GRAEB: Great. Therefore, in absence of any other rational basis this far, why
    don't we go in that order unless there is an objection. Do I hear any
 : What order?
 GRAEB: Bill Heidrick, Jim Eshelman and Bill Breeze.
 : Let them toss for it. (agreement)
 HEIDRICK: Pull three pennies, chances are they won't have the same date, take
    them in order. Lowest first. (background talking, some one suggests
    according to height.)
 GRAEB: Height of what? (Laughter. Pennies are distributed, candidates are to
    toss them.) Okay, whoever's odd will go first--(more laughter)-- what's
    the suggested procedure here?
 WOLFE: The lowest year goes first.
 GRAEB: The lowest year of initiation goes first--
 WOLFE: No, the year of the penny.
 HEIDRICK: I have 1985.
 BREEZE: 1968.
 ESHELMAN: 1976.
 GRAEB: Therefore, do I have the concurrence of the other ten august IX° who
    have so wisely chosen a method for interviweing the candidates, that we
    are to procede by reverse chron order of pennies. Any objection? Fine. Mr.
    Breeze, if you would open by stating your qualifications for the office of
    "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi Orientis. And intentions.
 BREEZE: I joined the Order in 1978. I've worked a lot in the field of one
    Lodge, I've assisted in the foundation of another Lodge. Both of these
    colonizations, as it were, were conducted overseas. I have a good idea
    what it's like to be organized from the United States ... (inaudible)
    ... for the work of the "Caliphate", and re-establishing the Law as far
    as we know. From college on, actually since my first involvement with
    Crowley in 1972, from college on I've studied Crowley a great deal and
    conducted a great deal of reasearch, and tried to assemble as complete a
    collection as possible of Crowley material. Reading Crowley, you can
    understand. I've been active in publishing since 1975, I've worked with
    93 publishing, I've worked with Samuel Weiser and two publishing
    companies of my own. I'm presently a member of the Supreme Council of
    the O.T.O., I'm second Emir. I have acted as a proxy for the formation
    of the Electoral College, I've represented East Coast O.T.O. interests.
    We have from time to time on the East Coast held impromptu, not to say
    clandestine, constitutional meetings, at which I sort of wound up
    presiding, and we've issued recommendations to the Supreme Council on
    the implementation of the constitution. I have very strong views about
    both the principles of the Order, the need for bringing the Order into
    line with its original vision as cleanly and as efficient as possible,
    and I have very definite ideas on what exactly the office of "Caliph"
    constitutes in terms, of continuing Crowley's work. I really don't feel
    that a "Caliph", with extreme exceptions, is necessarily true to his
    oath. There's no written oath. If the insignificant, in any significant
    degree deviates from what one's best understanding of what Crowley
    intended, Crowley did reformulate the O.T.O., he brought it into line
    with Liber Legis and Thelema, he allied it with the A.A., the O.T.O. is
    the first great magickal fraternity to accept the Law of Thelema, and
    Crowley actually had a vision of the O.T.O. someday extending into a
    form of government. To the extent that we, collectively, implement
    Crowley's dream, we're justified implementing that here ... that's my
    basic position.
 HEIDRICK: And your intentions? What you would do, in some detail?
 BREEZE: Well, Bill, there are a great many tails (tales? Laughter). As "Caliph"
 GRAEB: No cross yet. (responding to Heidrick and other interruptions)
 BREEZE: As "Caliph" I would conduct the office of X°, which is a purely
    administrative degree. I don't think that necessarily recognizes
    any...we're certainly not a meritocracy in the sense that...(inaudible)
    ... administrative conflicts ... common sense ... In terms of what I'd
    do, I would delegate authority in accordance with the constitution of
    the O.T.O. Crowley set up a very carefully designed system of checks and
    balances that at the lowest level includes a social organism, its middle
    levels includes democratic organizations, and parliamentary
    organizations, and at its highest level its virtually autocratic. There
    are certain constraints for each of those things. The "Caliph", absorbed
    until now, since Crowley's death, after Crowleyls death, and it could
    perhaps be argued, after Germer's death, has subsumed a lot of the
    responsibilities of these intermediate bodies. I think we're mature
    enough to fully activate, say, the Electoral College, I've worked with
    the activation of other governing bodies. Right now, within the
    demographics of the Order, it's population, its distribution, the
    stability that you've all achieved, I think it's possible to fully
    activate the Electoral College, fully adopt the Blue Equinox
    constitution with provisos concerning basically a business angle. Taxes,
    that stuff--in this country. Reinstitute secrecy you've all been obliged
    to do a great deal of field work which requires close contact with the
    many. That's how we all got our feet wet, that's how we understand the
    conditions that we're obliged to govern. I think we're at the point now
    where we have sufficient population, sufficient talent, and there's also
    a need to create room for other talent, moving up to IX°s. You know,
    reinstitute secrecy. In the case of the IX°s I feel that it's quite
    true, practicing the thaumaturgy of the grade is the principle business.
    Acting as secret emissaries of the X° is a possibility
    (inaudible) ... I feel that when I talk at great length with a number of
    you, and with Jim Eshelman, who's currently the president pro tem of the
    Electoral College that leaving a great deal of the existing edifice of
    the O.T.O. in place, including Jim's position on the Electoral College,
    and for a time, Bill Heidrick's position as Grand Treasurer General,
    until such time as Grand Lodge can be safely moved. We could separate
    out, there could be roles and responsibilities in line with what Crowley
    designed. Everybody would know their job, if they read Crowley writings.
    I think we could give a clear signal to everybody in the field that, in
    fact, we are the organization to join.
 GRAEB: We had intended to do that. (laughter)
 BREEZE: That's, in summary, my intentions. It certainly doesn't get out or
    practical (inaudible).
 GRAEB: Is it cross or direct?
 PARSONS: well, one thing I would like to bring up is, do these guys, with
    their jobs have enough time that they can handle being OHO?
 GRAEB: That's really a question on cross. I would ask you to defer it until
    its time, though it's a very pertinent question, I'll agree. Bill,
    anything further on your opening statement?
 GRAEB: Jim?
 ESHELMAN: Well, the statistics first. I've been in the O.T.O. since 1979,
    I'm V°, actually a sub-degree higher, I'm a member of the Senate of
    Knight Hermetic Philosophers, master of Baphomet Lodge for about a year
    and a half before that, NOX chapter, worked very closely with Lon of
    Heru-Ra-Ha Lodge for a number of years, at that point. I'm currently the
    first Emir on the Supreme Council, and I'm Vice-President, since the
    "Caliph"'s death the acting President, of the Electoral College. Maybe
    the biggest thing I've done for the Order so far is taking the step,
    which I believe is the decisive step, which has given us an Electoral
    College. There were lots of people talking, the people who inflamed me
    with the importance of it and inflamed me with the importance of the
    Blue Equinox system. About two and a half years ago, when the Supreme
    Council was elected, the IX°s at large gave a mandate that they wanted
    the Blue Equinox constitution implemented specifically with regard to
    the Electoral College. Three quarters of the way through that two year
    term it hadn't happened, and I asked a couple people why it hadn't
    happened, I up to that time hadn't been taking a stand on that myself.
    There's been dissension in the Order, there's been division. This hasn't
    been the Order, the Order has been constipated. The Order has been very
    constipated, for much the same reason that people get constipated.
    Things aren't moving, there's dissatisfaction, there's something which I
    personally believe is needed. As for the March 1985 EV gathering of the
    members of the IX° to be able to be told: "You told us to do it two
    years ago and we did it." So last October, after a long talk with Bill
    Heidrick, talks with Lon, talks with LeRoy Lauer and other V°s, we put
    together a proposal that got adopted, that was as constitutional as I
    thought I could get through at the time. The other thing that I think
    I've contributed most, speaking history, is, many of you've been kind
    enough to commend the work I've done in proper reconstruction of the
    O.T.O. rituals. I don't know that I'm the most knowledgeable person on
    the O.T.O. rituals, but it's been one of my passions to dig through and
    find out how they're supposed to be done and reconstructed. I think that
    it is true that perhaps outside of the Bay Area, that the vast majority
    of all initiations above III° that have been done the last few years
    have used copies of the rituals I've prepared. That's something I feel
    very good about. Some of them have mistakes, so you got new copies of
    them. These are the things that I've done so far. These are things that
    show where my head's at. In terms of administrative ability, I'm one of
    two candidates who has worked and who has continued to work in
    management in the world. I think it extremely important, and the
    question has come up about people who have jobs--do they have time to do
    the job of "Caliph", I think it essential that the Order--one of its
    primary purposes is to spread Thelema in the world, be headed by
    somebody who's in the world. Someone who's mingling with people, who's
    out in the workaday world, who's involved with society. And yes, I have
    the time. I managed a publishing company for two years, ACs
    Publications, one of the three largest astrological/occult publishers in
    the country, we tripled our production, the first year we doubled and
    again the next. That's my track record there. I'm currently managing a
    word processing department and a psychiatrist's office. And I have been
    with that company for over two years. When I first got the charter for
    OX chapter, my first Magickal Link when it was out stated what OX
    Chapter was about at that time. I said that we exist in support of the
    A.A. And when Baphomet Lodge was chartered the first thing I said was
    that we exist to put a little more Baphomet in the Order. What these
    mean to me is that my primary emphasis is that what I joined was an
    initiatory order. I've come to the end of where I thought I could go
    without somebody's guidance. In my own natural career, without some kind
    of structure, instruction, tuition or something, and I did a magickal
    working to get instruction, and the O.T.O. fell in my lap and I joined.
    This initiatory order that I joined. And yes, we're a super-social
    structure, and yes, we're an economic-political system, and yes, we're a
    propagandist system, but first and foremost, what matters to me is; Are
    we initiating? Do the people wholve been moving up through the degrees
    show initiation? I'm not saying that I can judge flat out what that is,
    but ask yourself the question any way you can. Do the people who pass up
    through the degrees show that they've gone through personal
    transformation of some kind? Have they become enlightened in some way,
    did they become illuminated in some way, do their lives work better than
    they did? For the most part, I painfully say no. We have succeeded in
    part to create the beginnings of a Thelemic society that we can live in.
    We've practiced being Thelemites and we can practice living out this
    stuff and giving credence to each other, even when we have to bump our
    heads against it out in the world or not bump our heads against it out
    in the world. I think that that's where we've succeeded. And I think
    that's also what the Man of Earth triad is all about. It's bringing in
    people from all walks of life, whether they're interested in magick or
    not, and introducing them to Thelema. And if there's a particular
    society which we can create, and those who are enabling magicians, those
    who do have some desire to go beyond the veil of the III°, to look
    inside, to find their own personal goal. All the metaphors that we can
    pull out, then we can take them further. And we should be able to take
    them further. And our initiation rituals are valid and do work. The
    people who've been ready for initiation have been triggered by them,
    it's been a catalyst. Other people we haven't been preparing and we
    haven't been screening. The biggest issue I have right now--twofold--in
    what the Order needs. We need to bring it in line with Crowley's vision,
    which means that if elected, I would, as rapidly as possible, which
    means almost immediately, fully implement the Liber 194 constitution
    with reservations on the matter of the vow of poverty, if we can work
    out something that's going to work. I see nothing else in there that we
    cannot do. Now. Immediately. Period. That's it. Secondly, the initiation
    rituals need to be supplemented with education. And I don't just mean
    book learning, though it needs a lot of that, I mean practices, I mean
    something that perrtains to the Order itself. With all respect to the
    field marshalls who put together our current Liber MCLI; one of the
    co-creators of that said that they basically set that up so that a III°
    O.T.O. would know at least as much about what was going on as a Neophyte
    of the Golden Dawn. To which I ask; Why? We're not the Golden Dawn, and
    they teach different things, and the whole system's set up differently.
    My own ideas, because this is important to me in how I would implement
    them, has started with taking what documents we have of the education
    system of the O.T.O. under Reuss. Taking things which are specified in
    the rituals. Taking the existing instructional papers from pre-1947.
    Taking things which subsequent degrees indicate you need to know before
    you got there and getting them there first. I see virtually no test for
    advancement through III°. But lots of instruction provided. lots of
    training provided. The Men of Earth need to be taught not so much how to
    do a Banishing Pentagram Ritual as how to get their lives in order. In
    the Minerval, the fact that they have a will, that they are an
    individual, that they have a place in society and we have a system that
    works. The I°--get rid of those things in your life that are standing in
    the way, that are going to stop you from doing your will. The
    II°--here's our social system. Here's our structure. Here's how to treat
    people, here's how to be treated. Here's what you can expect from your
    life. You're starting to know who you are, go do it. The III° then
    learns that he is the Word. That she is the Word. The truth. The inner
    secret, that the identity is one with the will. You all know these
    things, I guess I'm just telling you that I know these things and that
    this is where I think the emphasis needs to be in the early training.
    But beyond III°, I would think pretty rigorous. One of the most
    controversial things that I have is that I think the dividing line
    before V°, from P.I. to V° should be extremely hard. Not that we keep
    anybody out, if they'll do the work.. They're entering into a second
    Order, they're entering into a governmental kind of structure. In the
    lower degrees, everyone's entitled, if they keep their nose just a
    little bit clean, pay their dues and hang in there. And the only
    criteria that we can really have beyond good report, paying of dues,
    full age, that kind of thing, is time. So maybe, just maybe time is the
    best criteria we have there. But beyond that point, I think that the
    only criteria we can have is whether people actually do some work that
    makes a difference in their lives and contributes to the Order. I think
    that any time criteria, beginning with IV°, is wrong. And I think that
    any criteria that don't involve personal transformation or change
    measured in some objective way, part of which I think I have already
    found out, and most of which I went into with all around me. If it
    doesn't include that kind of thing, then we are failures.
 SMITH: Can I say something?
 SMITH: Good. In the Book of the Law it talks about they see you as fallen
    ... (someone hesitantly continues the quote, other quotes are quoted.)
 SECKLER: Nor shall they who cry aloud their folly that thou meanest
    nought avail; thou shall reveal it; thou availest--speaking to Crowley.
 SMITH: Yes, but also this thing about--what kind of work are you suggesting?
 GRAEB: No cross yet. Jim, any further?
 ESHELMAN: A lot of what I would do in specific detail needs to be created on
    the situation. Let's leave that matter and bring forward the fact that I
    made my living in management and done very successfully at it. Now, I want
    to put out the most controversial things, just as those things which
    distinguish me from any other candidate. Bottom line is, the implementing
    of the way Crowley said it was supposed to be. If some point down the road
    after we've implemented it and put it fully in place we find that we
    cannot go on and it's failing, then we change it. But we haven't done it
    that way yet. We haven't given it a chance. That's it.
 GRAEB: Bill?
 HEIDRICK: Thank you. Well, this is going to come out a little differently
    than my two worthy, colleagues is a better term than competition. I have
    an odd position in this race because I want to win it and I want to lose
    it. First of all, I'd like to live a little longer than I would if I end
    up being "Caliph". The reason behind all of that sort of circuitous is
    this; essentially, for the last two or three years I have been "Caliph"
    in almost everything but fact. The job is a killer, and will be for the
    next five to ten years. We started out in '77 with some work that had
    been prepared by Phyllis, and before that, others, we had just a few,
    three, people that carried the living tradition from Crowley's time to
    this and we're talking to them. There are another few, three or four,
    that had been initiated before '77. From that day to this a half a dozen
    people have grown to over 700 members. We have managed to creep slowly
    up the Blue Equinox to the business of setting up and beginning the
    serious work of the Electoral College. I think we've done the job that
    could be done in the time. And like it or not, and sometimes it's been
    both, I've been somewhat the midwife of that process. I have designed
    the words in which our rules are written, I've tried in the process of
    speaking most of those resolutions as they were passed in the Supreme
    Council to collect the feelings and the intentions of the people who
    would vote on them. I've found that through some curiousity I can
    formulate words that some others could not, but they had the ideas very
    clear. In the process of this I had hoped for one particular goal, aside
    from the general one of bringing the Order up to this point and beyond.
    And that goal was simply that all rules, all regulations, all
    resolutions, whatever term is imposed on these things, wherever
    possible, should impose upon the officers and the other people
    responsible for the lower degree members. If there is a rule in this
    Order it is an extension of the oath that we take as we initiate so that
    we will act honorably and predictably to those who are less aware than
    we are, and for this reason things have gotten rather cluttered. In the
    last couple of years, Grady first writhed after giving up certain, uh,
    "beverages", of necessity, and then he entered a physiological decline.
    And in the last couple of years that decline finally reached the point
    where he was only able to do a little bit in supervising the Order. I
    think that you have to examine what has happened in that period to
    understand the job of "Caliph". And in this I'm not speaking so much for
    myself but for the job as I understand it. While Grady was alive, he was
    full time. Many of you remember him as somewhat not fully there, but
    that isn't the way he was. If he was tired, he became angry. And if it
    was just a little too much of one thing or another, he didn't make a lot
    of sense. But every single person who was initiated in this Order
    recieved his okay if he was available to give it, his blessing in the
    form of Crowley's signet ring on the certificate, and every time the
    Supreme Council or any other governing body of this Order disagreed with
    him, Grady went with the majority vote. And sometimes complained
    vehemently. Now. Most of what I've been doing as Grand Treasurer General
    has been in two areas of default. Most of it has been projects started
    by other people and abandoned. And a big chunk of it, especially lately,
    has been the duties of the "Caliph". We have a little thing in the
    by-laws that says if the "Caliph" does not or can not act, well, mostly
    Grady set up, he started the process, he watched me do it a few times,
    and then he just simply said he wasn't interested and I had to bother
    him to get questions across to him. So, essentially what I offer you is
    experience. Maybe it's not the right experience, but I will offer you
    one other thing, that I'd like to get into what I'd intended to. I will
    offer you this: I watched Grady, I watched Grady never use the veto, and
    I think from that I understood something, that the "Caliph" is the X°
    and is not the X°. The "Caliph" is the OHO and is not the OHO. The last
    strong OHO of this Order was Crowley. After that, Germer, and Germer had
    the potential, I think, of being a strong OHO, but he simply did not
    have the will to act. He held, and one could argue why, but his name,
    Saturnus, says a great deal. He held the Order in an unusual manner
    until the age was right for it's manifestation. And it has again
    continued in that manifestation. We're taught in some of the occult
    schools that these things come on and off for a time. They disappear for
    a decade or more and then they come back stronger. And I think that's
    what happened under Germer, too many people remembered Crowley.
    Immediately. I mean, there could never be another Crowley. So if there'd
    been a direct attempt to continue the Order then I think it'd have
    failed. Then under Grady, Grady didn't have quite a clear writ. He
    hadn't been picked, he'd sort of been picked. So what he did, is he just
    looked around, and he said these people, my colleagues, Helen, Phyllis,
    Mildred, when she was with us, others before them, that's the family.
    They're the people that own the O.T.O. Not as you own an object, but as
    you have an indwelling of the spirit, and have an intelligence. No one
    person, "Caliph" or anyone else, has a right to dictate to this Order in
    any particular how it should be. In that I do differ with the Blue
    Equinox constitution and I differ on two grounds. First, I think that
    there is a thing more important than the Blue Equinox constitution, and
    that's Thelema. And I think we should be damned, damned careful where we
    think we've spotted a contradiction of Thelema in the Blue Equinox
    constitution. But one thing I know is a contradiction: it's in when you
    pick some mortal who has the capability of a stroke, or a very bad bout
    of temper, and you make him not the gods that Thelemites can be but the
    kind of gods the Christians worship, somebody who's always right. I
    think this is wrong, and I think we've learned from Grady how to avoid
    it. If the "Caliph" gets sufficiently difficult you just wander away and
    then come back when he has calmed down or is exhausted, and try him
    again, and you don't let the "Caliph" frighten you away from his
    service. Because it's the service of the "Caliph" to the members, not
    the other way around. The higher you rise in O.T.O. the more time you
    give to the Order and the less you possess for yourself. And that is the
    fundamental nature of Thelema; you have no right but to do your will,
    that and nothing else. And if it is your will to rise in the Order, then
    you have no other life. Be it mundane labor, and excuse me, but
    sometimes I think raising a family. The Order raises the family of the
    higher members, not the individuals.
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: Do you think mine have the time? (Laughter)
 HEIDRICK: I'll think about that. So ultimately then I believe in certain
    things about the Order, and I rest on my record, and I will do these
    things in the future if you choose to elect me. I will continue in the
    same manner as I've continued in the past. I intended to say "period", but
    I will add that that means that I've observed how Grady did it, I don't
    intend to get in quite the same latter part of my life as he, so if I am
    elected "Caliph" I will resign before I reach ultimate infirmity, and by
    that I mean physical. I would hope that the O.T.O. would recognise and
    remove me if I become mentally infirm. And to that end later, I have some
    ammendments to offer. The spirit can pass out of a person and we do no
    honor to the person if we retain the empty vessel in the image that the
    spirit once presented. Instead we owe it honor and protection. And that is
    what I'd accept if I were "Caliph". Further, I believe that the power of
    the X° can never again vest in one person completely, in any country, but
    instead best to the level at which it fell and the level at which it must
    be created. There is no X°, plain and simple, in the world today. There
    are, absolutely clear, plain and simple IX°s. There is no undeniable OHO.
    Time changes, the IX° now possesses the power of the X° and they vest it
    in one person in each country if it chooses, but like all such vestings it
    cannot permanently depart. The IX° receives it back on the death or
    removal of the X°, I do not wish to see--
 end of side three
 HEIDRICK: ... so what I will do is ... be an asshole, offer all kinds of
    unpleasant "why-the-hell-aren't-you-doing-this"-es, rant and rave in
    private, and unfortunately when it gets too steep, among friends, and
    essentially bow to the will of any elected body of the Order who gives
    these duties. I believe the Supreme Council is more the X° when it meets
    than the X°, and I believe the IX° is certainly more than the X° when
    its vested will is expressed. And as far as matters of discipline, Lon
    here and I have had a set-to.
 DUQUETTE: You know where to locate me.
 HEIDRICK: (facetiously) I think he's terribly thweet, and we're going to
    thwitch our Roman numeralth around and play. (laughter) That's off the
    record ... Only if you promith to bring a lady. For yourthelf. But, to be
    more serious about it, I've viewed certain things as essential. And it's
    maybe a little German block-ette about me, but I really am stuck in this
    view. So you might want to consider not voting for me if you think this is
    a sufficient problem. I believe that the material plane, the governmental
    plane and the various spiritual planes are all part of the same Thelemic
    whole. And that anyone who looks at a coin and does not see a talisman of
    magick is an idiot. Anybody who performs a ritual to kill somebody that
    they'd be afraid to shoot is a fool. Anybody who sets up an organization
    and doesn't want to recognize that the government of the country is part
    of the magick they're performing, of these funny little words that they
    want written down, is missing a large part of their complete self. I think
    there are divisions between the worlds and they're there for convenience.
    I don't think we can afford them. It is my firm commitment to see that the
    worlds are united as we are told we should do in ourselves, and that that
    union should be accomplished through O.T.O., there is no law of the land,
    no tradition, no custom which we cannot, with our art, find a Thelemic way
    to adjust to our purpose. And I think to assume that we can not is to be a
    deafeatist. So in short I offer you what I believe what is the only
    Thelemic test for candidacy available, and you certainly don't have to
    agree with me, I offer you a measure of success and call it my proof. I
    offer to continue in the same line, and I never said I'd be humble.
 GRAEB: It's 8:30. Bill, any more?
 HEIDRICK: That's it.
 GRAEB: It's 8:36, we've heard opening from each of the three primary
    candidates, if I may, Michelle, I myself am feeling a bit winded, I don't
    want this to be a battle of exhaustion. I'm going to, with your
    concurrence, at this time move for a five minute adjournment. With the
    idea that when we return I encourage more formal discussion. When we
    return, I arr. going to limit cross to no more than fifteen minutes per
 HEIDRICK: Per per, or--
 GRAEB: Per individual per candidate. I request an absolute outside limit at
    which point I'll say "stop, no more questions". I request that we all
    keep it all much shorter than that, I am open for discussion during the
    adjourment. Are there any... in the meantime, it being 8:36-8:37, I'm
    going to request an adjournment until 8:45 p.m., I shall move, is there
    a second? (seconded, passed) I have unanimously--(break)--It is 8:46
    p.m., the meeting has reconvened and we have a couple of the IX°s not
    present in the room. As a matter of protocol and courtesy we will
    commence formal meetings when they return.
 HEIDRICK: I hope they're doing a working. (laughter)
 GRAEB: During the break--I'll wait 'till Helen comes back.
 HEIDRICK: Shouldn't somebody give Tony a call and brief him or something?
 GRAEB: He's practicing VIII° magick right now ... (laughter. Conversation
    reveals that Helen is in the bathroom, others are conducting several
    separate conversations as he return is awaited) I'd like to say while
    Helen is gone, first of all, Bill's point, I'd like to emphasize to
    everyone that while Grady was "Caliph" he never once exercised that veto
    power. He beefed, kicked and moaned about it but never once exercised it,
    and I would hope that the next "Caliph"--
 HEIDRICK: That shouldn't mean that the next "Caliph" shouldn't exercise it. It
    is exercisable and it can be overturned by--
 GRAEB: I only wish to point out that Grady, like me, well, if that many
    people think I'm wrong the odds are, heck, I'm wrong.(laughter)
 HEIDRICK: Or, who's going to do the work if I get too difficult?
 GRAEB: We are all eleven IX°s, one pot and two guests bring us to a full
    coven of thirteen, we're here for the purpose of electing a new "Caliph" of
    the Ordo Templi Orientis. I've been advised during the break that there is
    a matter which may expedite our proceedings this evening and accordingly,
    I'd like to reccommend Jim Eshelman to the floor.
 ESHELMAN: Thank you. All three of us who spoke talked about management
    ability and experience and involvement in magick and done-this and
    done-that. What I noticed the most, and have noticed for some time, is a
    sharp difference in philosophy. Beyond that, what's the most important
    (inaudible), and one of the things I've been aware of for a long time,
    and long before Grady passed on to his next whatever-it-is, is that Bill
    Breeze and I have been in such agreement on virtually every issue of
    importance today with regard to what's important to the Order, that, one
    thing, it's been a real joy to communicate with him, and with the other
    true brothers of the mind. I may continue in my position as a candidate,
    and continue on to the office of "Caliph", but Bill Breeze and I have
    talked and debated and rattled to such a place where we've come up with
    a system that I think will work much better than my being "Caliph". And
    I'm asking everyone who was intending to vote for me not to divide the
    vote for the Blue Equinox, not to divide the Blue Equinox vote, not to
    split it between this person who wants factor a and this person who
    wants factor a. But cast any votes that would have gone for me for Bill
    Breeze. It pretty much comes down to a philosophical difference there, I
    think Bill as the time comes up will fill in any more details on how he
    envisions that plan working. I'm technically still candidate, and I'm
    here since I have some part in his plan to answer any questions that
    affect me, but let's bring it down to two candidates and decide on that
    basis. (applause)
 GRAEB: Jim, I applaud you, I'd like to thank all three of you for your
    candor, James, you're requested to please stay present for the remainder
    of--well, for a time. As I understand it, Jim Eshelman has essentially
    brought our decision down to--we eleven will bear the karma of this
    decision between Bill Heidrick and Bill Breeze.
 ESHELMAN: I predict that Bill will win. (laughter)
 GRAEB: Any comment from the other members of the IX° present?
 HEIDRICK: Just that it's nice that someone whose first name comes out Will is
    going to make it.
 LACEDONIA: Even though that was very honorary of Jim Eshelman to do that, I
    still have some questions, I mean that doesn't ... I'm sorry, but that
    doesn't count me off in his mind even though he--
 GRAEB: I haven't got the power to ask him his will.
 LACEDONIA: And I still have some questions that I would have liked all three
    of them to answer anyway, so I still would want to see him answer those
    questions anyway. He says he's still candidate.
 GRAEB: Accordingly,--
 HEIDRICK: So you can tie him up and beat him up first, and after you've found
    out the best technique, you can use it on Bill.
 GRAEB: Accordingly, for no reason better than the order in which I have put
    you on the letter of announcement, which was to my recollection only the
    date of initiation into IX°--
 HEIDRICK: May I intercede at one point? Since I am a candidate, I would ask
    that you allow any questions that would by rotation come to me, to wait
    until the candidates cross examine each other.
 GRAEB: Do I have a concurrence?
 SMITH: What?
 GRAEB: In other words, Bill doesn't want to be on the cross list until the
    end with the other candidates. He doesn't want to cross-examine himself.
    (laughter) Okay, I have a concurrence. Accordingly, we will therefore
    commence, essentially, cross-examination, or more politely phrased,
    questioning of the candidates, and we commence with Helen Smith.
 SMITH: I've done that by letter. I know where they stand.
 LACEDONIA: But maybe they should discuss what they told you in the letters--
 WASSERMAN: This is a questioning process, Andrea. You can ask your questions.
 LACEDONIA: I'm asking her, though, she said that--
 WOLFE: She's not being cross-examined.
 GRAEB: If I may, I think that is a matter after each of us have had a--first
    of all, the cross-examination itself may take a while (GRAEB, Lacedonia
    begin discussion, Heidrick joins in) I think that a discussion between all
    of us as to our opinions is the last matter we'll discuss in the world.
    Back to you, Helen.
 SMITH: I think all my questions have been answered. Very definitely, I prefer
    to move on to the next.
 GRAEB: Phyllis, you're next on the list.
 SECKLER: All right. I will start with the same order that we used previously,
    with the pennies. I would like to ask Bill Breeze; you have a Lodge in
 BREEZE: I remain Lodge Master and have an assistant Lodge Master who has
    charter to initiate--he's cutting his teeth, you might say.
 SECKLER: And you are not able to go to that Lodge?
 BREEZE: I could go there, but I choose not to. I might, interfere with his
    training process. I think it's highly unlikely he'll ever establish
    himself as the resident Lodge Master ...
 SECKLER: How many did you initiate when you began? Were you there when you
    initiated them?
 BREEZE: Oh, certainly. I was managing the Lodge for over two years, then I
    left. I had the assistance of Grady, Michael and Michelle Ripple, Jim
    Wasserman, I moved to New York, founding a Lodge--it was at that time the
    Wilford Smith chapter ... to the best of my recollection, we initiated
    some fifty-five members, of whom approximately thirty remain. To my
    knowledge. Some are less active than others.
 SECKLER: Allright, are dues and fees paid by everyone in your group?
 BREEZE: Currently, I couldn't say. That remains in the ethnological ...
 SECKLER: Have you been able to do anything about the fact that they might be
    in truck with---that there might be anything improper in the way they are
    handled, are you able to do anything about that?
 BREEZE: I certainly have avoided--there have not been initiations in Montreal
    for about a year until recently. They did do some second degrees recently.
    I believe two weekends ago we did about eight Minervals. I've instructed
    Lou on the use of (inaudible) and how he is supposed to interact
    appropriately. If Lou feels a responsibility to do that (inaudible.
    Statement seems to regard a lack of precedent for O.T.O. governmental
    interference due to internal troubles)
 SECKLER: Okay, are you supposed to turn in a Treasurer's report to Grand
    Lodge from your Lodge in Montreal?
 SECKLER: Is this always done?
 BREEZE: Bill, when was the last one sent in?
 HEIDRICK: Can't remember any.
 SECKLER: What would you do about O.T.O. members in general who do not pay
    their dues and fees?
 BREEZE: I'd do what I had to.
 SECKLER: Just as the system we have now, then?
 BREEZE: An O.T.O. memter is an O.T.O. member. They would obviously not have
    the rights and privileges and access to facilities that they are not
    contributing to support. Candidates in such a situation can not apply the
    same criteria to a budding sovereignity that you'd like to see as a United
    States Lodge. That would make the same sort of terrible mistakes you
    made down here, with the X° even prevented from doing that. And given a
    little understanding why they are different ...
 SECKLER: How do you mean, they are different? Is it that they don't owe any
    fees, that they don't owe any dues here to the central government, is that
    how they're different?
 BREEZE: The arrangement that the Grand Treasurer General and I initiated for
    Canada is that Canadians pay ten dollars per year regardless of degree.
 HEIDRICK: Not quite. Could I enlarge? In established areas, as I put down in
    the outline, full dues are required. They must be collected by the local
    Lodge, and ten dollars of an established Lodge that is legally
    incorporated or associated with an initiator on our side and agreed to by
    the Supreme Council, then only ten dollars fees to Grand Lodge. Ten
    dollars represents the minimum maintainance cost for the slight margin
    for a membership per year. So we essentially just take the minimum at
    Grand Lodge that will maintain our records and our mailings, and assume
    that the local is being established using that to further its--
 SECKLER: But if they have a III° over there, or let's say a IV°, the fees
    become higher?
 HEIDRICK: That's the whole idea. There's an incentive there that the Lodge
    will grow, and that it would essentially, in another sense, tend to fail
    if it is not competently handled. We've had a problem in the States in
    that there hasn't been much in the way of follow-up on some of these.
    We've also used the distant, incorporated and other-country groups for
    experimental purposes. Cause we're looking to set up OHO voting X°s in
    such places eventually. And some of the experiments have not really
    proven out too well.
 SECKLER: Would you, as "Caliph", insist that dues and fees be paid on time by
    everyone, without exception?
 BREEZE: In principle, yes, in terms of accounting. (inaudible) Every member
    has the right to borrow up to the amount of dues they've paid into the
 HEIDRICK: (groans)
 BREEZE: Well, this is true.
 WASSERMAN: It's in the Blue Equinox.
 HEIDRICK: It's in the Blue Equinox, but we haven't implemented it here.
 BREEZE: Well, I would do that. (inaudible, elaboration of above) If you have
    credit, use it. This is business.
 SECKLER: All right, would you have a particular strategy to see that people
    pay dues and fees? Dues especially, because Grand Lodge can not exist
    without them.
 BREEZE: Yeah, part of the problem of the dues structure is that very little
    of the dues are retained by the local bodies who collect them, and it
    really has to be the responsibility of the local body to collect them,
    unless we come up with some more condensing invoices. It's difficule to
    collect by mail. If I could go over there as soon as possible... We've
    historically had better collection at point of initiation, for dues ...
    I think it's the responsibility of an initiating Lodge to collect the
    dues. The 1917 constitution indicates that, and also there is a Crowley
    memo, a three page memo, that indicates that dues are split between the
    local Lodge and Grand Lodge. This is something that I--
 SECKLER: That's what I planned when I started this with Grady. It was my
    idea to start dues--$15, fees--$15, and fees were kept by the Lodge. I
    don't think those fees helped the Lodge any, because they just about
    covered the cost of initiation, and that's it. It is also then my
    suggestion, over the years, to various persons that their fees to the
    Lodges should be raised. Perhaps--but we needn't go into that, that was
    my suggestion, I'm just trying to get your opinions on these.
 BREEZE: Well, I think a lot of what I've said, I think the dues should
    be split between the local jurisdiction and Grand Lodge at the point of
 SECKLER: Fees are for initiation. Try, to keep this straight. Dues go
    to Grand Lodge, the way it works out now.
 BREEZE: There is a precedent, there are documents that suggest that dues ...
    The Lodges have incentive to collect.
 GRAEB: Phyllis, by the way, you have five more minutes.
 SECKLER: All right, thank you.
 HEIDRICK: You might want to kick me a couple of times, Phyllis--
 GRAEB: That's per candidate.
 SECKLER: All right now, since you can not meet with your people, or do not
    at the moment, what are you doing in particular to aid your group
    members into the light and teachings of Thelema and the O.T.O.?
 BREEZE: Well, I no longer consider Phoenix Lodge members my people, as
    such. I'm seriously--I consider Eastern Canada to a certain extent to be
    my responsibility as a whole. And that Grady demanded I try to develop
    Canada, and I did the best I could under those circumstances. I'm trying
    to encourage local initiates, and in so doing, while I did distribute a
    great deal of materials from my archives, I do circulate and that sort
    of thing, I do answer questions, I'm always available by telephone. I
    don't, I believe, go out and teach, or act as a guru. I don't feel that
    that stage of development, in a Lodge, is too beneficial. In the early
    stages ... (inaudible) ...
 SECKLER: I'd like to ask something a bit different. What is your attitude now
    about the time aspect of each candidate between the degrees?
 BREEZE: I feel that the time periods that were specified by the Supreme
    Council are arbitrary. I think we can all agree that they are arbitrary.
    Whether they are wise or just is subjective interpretation. Whether they
    are constitutional or not is, to a significantly lesser degree, subject to
    interpretation. There's no basis in any of the O.T.O. documents that I'm
    familiar with specifying a particular time for initiations. The rituals
    themselves suggest that they can, in certain circumstances, be performed
    in a series, in possibly one or two days. I'm not proposing this, I put
    this out as a logical reading of the material. It is, and there are also
    periods in Crowley's life in his diaries, that he did this. Probably in
    exceptional instances.
 SECKLER: Exceptional! Crowley was desperate, that's why he did it.
 BREEZE: Well, I hold with that, with all due respect, Phyllis, as
    subjective interpretation. There's ample reason for assessing people
    where O.T.O. matters are concerned on a mental level, but basically the
    idea for the whole thing is refuse not .... Everybody who considers
    themselves a Thelemite is either a Hermit or a Lover. You can not deny
    arbitrarily their right to unanimous use of degrees.
 SECKLER: No, I know that. We all know that.
 BREEZE: The phraseology "indefeasible right" seems pretty clear cut. I
    think that Lodges should have a certain amount of leeway in these
    matters. I think that it's impossible for headquarters, not knowing the
    individuals concerned, to make hard and fast judgements at a distance
    abort a person's qualification for rapid initiation. We need
 SECKLER: One more minute? Okay, what is your position on the present
    Magickal Link? Would you do anything to change it?
 BREEZE: Yes, I'd abolish it. (laughter) No, with all due respect, Bill, and
    with all due respect to this function the Magickal Link serves, in
    familiarizing everybody else in the O.T.O. with (noise, loud foreground
    whispering drowns him out) Public relations is important in running a
    business. It's been important to present a public face to the world.
    We're a fine organization, there's no reason to my mind that we can't
    present our face to the world. I feel a quarterly publication of
    sufficiently high quality, it doesn't need to be terribly expensive,
    with big bookstore distribution, I could arrange for that through
    Weiser, would be a far more efficient vehicle for the Order. In terms of
    inter-group comunication, that can be conducted per contacting people by
    writing letters.
 SECKLER: Time's up.
 GRAEB: You have time for one more question.
 SECKLER: If you were "Caliph", would you see the that money owing our
    lawyer in the suit against Motta was paid?
 BREEZE: Certainly.
 GRAEB: Lon?
 DUQUETTE: Bill Breeze, if you were "Caliph", would it make it easier for you in
    the next ten or fifteen or thirteen years, to publish one or more works
    similar to the Holy Books that have really put us on the map in a very
    good and positive way? Are you capable of and likely to publish more
 BREEZE: Yes. Most of my professional training--my career was determined by
    Aleister Crowley. My college was a lot of soft majors, which you really
    couldn't get a good job with, and I went to work directly with 93
    publishing. I was obliged to learn type-setting, design, book production
    and all that. Though I'm not directly in that business any more, now I'm
    in the computer and video buisness, I still have the skills and I still
    have such and such equipment. Sure. Part of my life's work is to publish
    Crowley's work in as responsible and professional a way possible. That
    really relates also to what I learned about public relations. We're
    capable of this kind of thing. We should do the very best we can, we
    should be very careful about the image we project to the world. As
    Crowley always was. (laughter, applause, light conversation. A
    collection is taken up for something. The two Bills discuss Crowley's
    PR, constantly interrupting each other, occasionally interrupted by
 DUQUETTE: Okay, just one more. Do you have any realistic opportunity to
    open up relations with Europe and the rest of the world?
 BREEZE: Sure. I have contacts which I turned over to Grand Lodge. I don't
    know what the legal situation is with England, Norman Franklin's our
    equivalent president and doing a very good job of that. I didn't feel I
    should represent the estate because I was in Canada at the time. A lot
    of my contacts are in the professional publishing business. I've had no
    contact with the splitters. I wrote them once, they didn't like that. I
    think they need Bill Heidrick over there. I have the address of the
    O.T.O. in Denmark which was activated in 1974. I don't know how the
    person's name is pronounced but he's the X° there ...
 HEIDRICK: Reference the latest item in the back of the Link where he's
    talking about ...
 BREEZE: I could see, well, the fact that nation O.T.O. is really only
    active in the Carribbean and in the United States, they have branches
    all over the world but it's really another organization. Aside from
    that, there is not to my mine, there is some repeated activity in South
    America, in, I think, Peru, there is much old line O.T.O. everywhere in
    the world. My best friend is corresponding with the Argentine O.T.O. Of
    course I know contacts in Canada. I do have relations with at least two
    of the growing overseas O.T.O. groups.
 GRAEB: Lon, I leave it to you, do you have any more questions to put to any
    of the candidates?
 GRAEB: Phyllis, I prematurely handed the floor over to Lon. I apologize. I
    meant for each of us to go ahead and cross-examine all three candidates,
    and not that we take one and beat them up, all eleven of us, and then go
    on. You have to take your turn and interview all three, you get forty-five
    minutes max, so I return the floor to you.
 GRAEB: Do you have any questions to put to Jim Eshelman or Bill Heidrick?
 SECKLER: I will start with Eshelman. How would your plan of action be
    implemented to insure that the instructions in the Blue Equinox as to the
    advancement of members to the higher grades, to V° and beyond, be
    carried out?
 ESHELMAN: First of all, the Blue Equinox doesn't give instructions on that
    particular topic.
 SECKLER: I just read you some when we started this. Oh, I'm sorry, Liber LII
    of course.
 ESHELMAN: Liber 52? Okay, there is a passage in Liber 52 that says,
    basically the O.T.O. teaches all kinds of Yoga, et cetera. Essentially I
    understand that everything in there is in the known instruction for the
    VIIth, VIIIth, IXth and Xth degrees. For instance, the instructions for
    VII° deal with a particular kind of Yoga. Do you want me to outline in
    detail the particular kind of educational system I had in mind? I could
    tell you more about how I composed it. A lot of it's incomplete, a lot
    of it's something that I went into with everybody here. Basically I
    started with a rough outline, which we have from Reuss, and the
    truncated but probably not distorted through Francis King, in which he
    gave the intellectual matters that were studied in each of the grades.
    Just to give one example of a criterion on one intellectual thing, the
    IV° lecture, to be understood in the slightest, requires a modicum of
    knowledge in Qabala. Therefore, the III° before passing to IV° should
    have some of that exact Qabalistic knowledge before passing on. There
    are ...
 SECKLER: What would you do in practical life to make sure that this
    instruction went on through the grades?
 ESHELMAN: One of the things which has already been outlined, and with Lola
    I have talked about it, we'll see if we can find the best way to
    implement it, is a series of instructional papers which would have a
    different emphasis in the different degrees, and as I said, in the Man
    of Earth degrees it would be basically how to live life as a Thelemite.
    In the higher degrees it would involve various practices, it would
    repeat documents which were used in part or in whole in the rituals.
    This would be provided and there would be explicit tests. There would be
    specific criteria. I don't have all these worked out. It would be
    specific criteria in each case for the initiators to use in evaluation.
    The system outline sounds a lot like what we have going now, but in
    detail it looks very different.
 SECKLER: All right, what would you do about the articles belonging to the
    O.T.O. now in storage?
 ESHELMAN: Keep them in storage some place else, in other words, if I were
    "Caliph" we would relocate them to a storage facility about a block and
    a half from my house.
 SECKLER: And who would take care of them? Do you have any idea? Okay, you
    don't at the moment.
 ESHELMAN: Not at the moment. Basically a block and a half from my house I'd
    basically be responsible for the handling of them. We do have quite a
    few volunteers and working members here ... If they're in storage they
    don't require a lot of maintainance, it's when you bring them out and do
    something with them. We do have plans for extended Lodge facilities,
    there have been tentative offers and donations of property. We're
    starting funds for property for Grand Lodge. And people to maintain that
    kind of facility.
 SECKLER: One question I didn't have time to ask is that Bill Breeze is on
    the East Coast and you're in Los Angeles. I'd like to ask it of each of
    you, and would you please answer very quickly because everybody's going
    to get very tired of these after a while, is that, if you were "Caliph",
    where would Supreme Council meet? Can you answer that first, Jim?
 ESHELMAN: After we had a transition Period, I'd expect it to meet in my
    vicinity. Some changes in structure of the Supreme Council. Supreme
    Council isn't a Blue Equinox body in the way we know it. There's a
    previous title "Supreme Courcil", which shows up in the 1917
    constitution, which is actually a different kind of structure. I'd like
    to fade out the current system as we fade in and strengthen the Blue
    Equinox system.
 SECKLER: And Bill Breeze, where would you have your council meet?
 BREEZE: Well, the existing Supreme Council has to remain intact, for our
    legal structure, for some time until we can legally and very carefully
    ammend the by-laws to transfer some of it's authorities to other
    responsible bodies in the O.T.O. such as the Electoral College. I would
    incorporate in the state of New York. A lot of the functions of the
    Supreme Council are simple corporate meetings, since this is a business,
    and it's a very efficient course for running a business, from a
    distance, so I would expect the Supreme Council to be based in New York.
    In the sense with the Supreme Council as the corporate board.
 ESHELMAN: May I add to my answer, Phyllis? Something that I feel strongly
    about is that a great deal of what Supreme Council has had on its agenda
    and has dealt with is the kind of thing that should be, in most cases,
    handled by the officers on a day to day basis. I think that the symptom
    of overgovernment has been part of what I called constipation before.
    That when you meet every month there's a need to meet every month to
    justify your existence. Even when you look at California non-profit
    corporate laws, most of the day to day action is expected to be handled
    by the officers, which is the nature of the officers, and is detailed in
    the actual code. The officers should simply handle it.
 SECKLER: All right, now let me ask Bill some questions. (GRAEB interrupts
    to politely ask Breeze to open the door. a discussion of fresh air and
    Sanctuary security follows. Apparently no one yet has found them or is
    eavesdropping.) Bill Heidrick, if the Electoral College can take over
    the functions that should probably take over some of the functions that
    have gone on at Supreme Council, would you consider it feasible that
    they should draw up a plan of ... more teachings toward the light, would
    you, consider this kind of work feasible?
 HEIDRICK: Well, I think that would be part of the Electoral Ccllege's task.
    But I think it's rather more important than drawing up a plan because
    there's no end to such plans to find a way of putting things onto
 SECKLER: Well, once they--
 HEIDRICK: I've got about a half a trillion words that I've written down,
    just transcribed from my lectures over the years. And there's no way to
    get those things to people to study. I think before anything else, an
    idea is only as valuable as the hands that are willing to put it into
    practice. And the electoral College should principally focus on that
    purppose, and then seek among the lower degrees, and be available among
    the higher degrees, for the expressions of what knowledge can be
    presented in those two grades. In other words, I think they should
    concentrate on printing, typing, editing and--
 SECKLER: Sending out.
 HEIDRICK: Sending out, and then there's a chance to expand a decent
    curriculum. One thing this world needs is a good typist.
 SECKLER: I'm an excellent one, but I've already done my work.
 MORTON: We need a word processor. (sighs. A short computer conversation.)
 HEIDRICK: Well, I type fast enough but I've only got one pair of hands. My
    toes are too slow. Got two keyboards, though.
 SECKLER: Bill Heidrick, do you consider that maybe the Supreme Council is
    having to meet too many times a year, that now that can be changed now
    that we have an Electoral College?
 HEIDRICK: I think there's a couple factors there. First of all, with no
    disrespect intended for Grady, you had to be there every month or he'd
    forget what was going on. And secondly, I think the Electoral College
    should be guided into the full use of those duties that the Supreme
    Council has been performing all the way from Minerval to the V°, I think
    there's still some discussion needed. Not by me, I just want everybody
    content that that's where it's going or not. I think the Electoral
    College can take over the entire question of what if somebody is
    suspended. I think expelled should be referred up to a higher body for
    final decision. I think return to order should be Electoral College
    duties, for those degrees. I think the Electoral College should
    eventually but not yet, this is a very important area where you need a
    lot of experience, take over the certifying, review and closure of
    official bodies of the Order in that degree range. By "that degree
    range" I mean the head of it is a V° or lower. Not anyone higher than
    V°. And generally not Lodges, but Camps and Chapters. So I think most of
    the work of the Supreme Council will find expression once the Electoral
    College is well established, but I think then the duty of the Supreme
    Council will vest in creating proper bodies for the VII° and VIII°s.
    It's a proving ground. And when it's done, I don't think any member of
    O.T.O. should serve on it. I think it should just simply handle the
    finances of the Order, it's powers to dictate policy should be removed
    from it, and the corporation just simply put in charge of the mundane
    side of the Order. I think it's the hole through which we have to pass
    at the moment.
 SECKLER: I see. Then you would be in favor that persons in the lower degrees
    should have a better system and an instruction in how to live as a
    Thelemite and all the things that are--
 HEIDRICK: No, I think that they should have a system. They don't have
    anything now except whatever is local. You see, the great problem we've
    had is that you can correct and you can instruct the master of a Camp or
    Chapter, but the kind of administration we now possess about once or
    twice a year. Unless that person is themselves very self-agressively
    involved. Then you can really train them properly. And by training it's
    an interaction, it's not "these are the rules and don't talk to me.".
    It's these are the rules and argue to me, if you have a better idea.
    Maybe I'll espouse it. But we haven't had the personnel that I think the
    Electoral College can generate for us to look at these lower bodies and
    work with them, rather than just say "Oh, the rules are such and such,
    call me in the morning". There's not enough people in a high level of
    the Order to do more than ask for a new medicine. We need some holistic
    health people down there, and I think the V° can provide them.
 end of side four
 HEIDRICK: The V° is experimental at this stage and I think we've held off
    rather long in letting people into it. I think it is absolutely
    necessary that the Supreme Council and the "Caliph", and the Grand
    Officers, especially if the "Caliph" isn't available, retain control of
    the entry point in conjunction with the Electoral College unil it's
    possible to look into these local places and say that the kind of person
    in IV° coming up to V° is what we expect. Or better, what we don't
    expect in a positive sort of way. In my own feeling, the average person
    who has reached V° is either already a IX°, not for their benefit, for
    the Order's benefit, and is essentially hobbling on a broken leg. And
    those members that have reached the V° in the last year or two that have
    come up in the natural and proper way without having advance work and
    responsibilities first, do include a few bunny rabbits. And we're going
    to have to look at that, I think maybe there's a saber-toothed one in
    there, or two.
 GRAEB: Close that door.
 HEIDRICK: The V° ...
 GRAEB: No more smoking.
 HEIDRICK: Is the leading edge of the Order. That's where it's happening
    now. And I think that we have to make some mistakes to find out what is
    the right thing to do with it. I do think that some of the people who've
    come into it weren't qualified and some are overqualified. And my
    biggest problem is the fact that we have not adequate means except in
    some rather high-handed ways, to find out whether candidates qualify for
    the degree or not. So the best thing that we've done is, I'd say, the
    same criteria that was used for IX°s. You can wait a hell of a long time
    and maybe you'll get there. Or you can make your value to the Order, a
    husbandry of the lower degrees, so important to us that we want to give
    you some more authority now. And that's how Mr. Eshelman got into the V°
    a bit ahead of time, and that's one of the reasons why a number of
    others have been delayed.
 SECKLER: What would be the action to be taken by the "Caliph", or by the
    Supreme Council or by the Electoral College, if we got some snakes in
    the grass at V°, what do you think should happen?
 HEIDRICK: Well, I think that you'd have to be very, very circumspect about
    that. "As brothers fight ye" is a piece of action that should be
    allowed. In other words, people can have disagreements, they should be
    mutually agreed disagreements. And if you find someone dominating a
    person in a lower degree, outright lying to that person in something
    other than minor matters, people do get a little loose in household
    trivia, that I think any kind of action should be suspension, a hearing,
    usually a review a couple of times and if it's a serious offence,
    someone has actually been given tangible harm like property stolen or
    talked into some criminal activity, then they should be, expelled. But I
    think that expulsion has to be with a group of people, I think no
    individual should have the power to expel anyone.
 GRAEB: Again, due to the smoking and things, I think we all need a five
    minute break, we're getting a bit tired. We're losing a member right
    now, I think. Hopefully, she will revocer. Lon, I would like to return
    the floor to you for questioning, then we'll take a five minute
    adjournment, finish the cross-examination and proceed with the voting.
 DUQUETTE: Well, let's take our five minutes right now. Okay with you?
 GRAEB: Any objections? I move that we take a--time being 9:35, I move that
    we take a five minute adjournment until 9:40. (emphatically passed)
 GRAEB: Lon DuQuette and Jim Eshelman have just returned to the room as I've
    been going through my preamble. I will now--since we all need to have
    our wits intact if you're all feeling as run down as I am, we need to
    keep this thing moving, accordingly, unless there is objection, we will
    limit the cross-examination or interview time to five minutes per
    candidate. In which case, that is the rule we made. Helen Smith, have
    you had your chance to interview all three candidates? (yes) Phyllis,
    you've had yours, Lon, you've had yours, next on my list is James
 WASSERMAN: Thank you. I'd like to start out very quickly by making a
    statement in support of Jim Eshelman. I think that he has contributed a
    great deal toward the eventual closure of tonight and I appreciate what
    you've done. I think it takes a lot of character and I appreciate that
    immensely. (applause) I've a question for Bill Breeze that I think
    touches every one of us as a crucial issue. It concerns the
    enfranchisement on what we call the IX°. Earlier this afternoon I
    submitted a plan to you which Lola and I sort of popped out of our heads
    in the car, which was that briefly, we don't have a X° body in numerous
    countries. We are electing an emergency OHO with an emergency IX° which
    is functioning essentially as an emergency X°. I propose a plan that for
    the lifetime of this particular "Caliph" whom we elect tonight, this
    "Caliph" would be subject to us IX°s. In terms of any removal process.
    The Blue Equinox says that the OHO can only be removed by the X°. Since
    we don't have a X° and since the new "Caliph" will form the X°, my
    proposal is that the "Caliph" we elect tonight will be subject to us
    until our death and his death, or her death. And that then, the X°,
    which will become the senior membership of the Order at our death, would
    take over the function of the removal of the OHO which would succeed the
    present emergency OHO, ie., the "Caliph". Are you willing to abide by that
 BREEZE: I think it needs to be re-stated. (laughter)
 DUQUETTE: Whoa, we're going to do fine!
 GRAEB: I'll do one of the things I'm told I do best, and that's re-state
    it. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that what Jim is stating is
    that we have no de jure X° or OHO at this time, that right now
    the power rests with the IX° body. Accordingly, at least until such
    time as we have a X° proper de jure OHO of the Order that this IX°
    body does not wish to--while it will delegate authority to a "Caliph",
    empower that person as X° and de facto OHO of the Order, we don't
    intend to give up our voting right or our current power over that X°
    or "Caliph" at this time.
 BREEZE: Is that quite the same thing, James?
 WASSERMAN: Essentially it is in a sense. As I see it, the Blue Equinox
    provides for the removal of the OHO by unanomous consent of all the X°s.
    What I am suggesting is, we don't have X°s now, and so the only
    unanimous consent would be among the X°s that we create in the next
    twenty or thirty years. But it could be called stacking the ballot, in
    other words, if the "Caliph" we elect tonight chooses all his or her
    friends to be the X°, they're not going to be the ones to remove him,
    and I don't think any one of us is that happy to lose the position of X°
    pro tem that we now hold in these transitional phases to a real
    recognized de jure OHO. What I'm suggesting is that the charter
    membership of we eleven people function as provisional X°s until such
    time as the X°a who are created by our regime, so to speak, are the
    senior members of the Order. Right now, we are the senior members of
    the Order. We are all going to die. And the senior members will do the
    X°s that are created by us, before we die.
 BREEZE: All right, can I re-state that?
 BREEZE: As in the Blue Equinox, as the Grand Lodge of X°s of their
    respective countries comprising the international O.T.O. are to the OHO
    regarding his election and removal by unanimous vote you want, for the
    duration of the office of this "Caliphate", this body of IX°s, charter
    members only,-
 WASSERMANN: By unanimous consent.
 BREEZE: By unanimous consent, to have both the same right to elect, which
    is obviously being exercised at this moment,--
 WASSERMAN: This time it's being exercised, and removal only for the
    lifetime of this IX°, these charter members and this "Caliph" that
    we elect tonight.
 BREEZE: That does lead to a question, which is how, is the next "Caliph"--
 WASSERMAN: That's not the question I asked. (laughter)
 BREEZE: I can go with that, but--
 WASSERMAN: As far as the next "Caliph" is concerned, or the successor to
    the "Caliph" we elect tonight, I think the election needs to take place
    first and we need to look into those questions later. Because as far as
    I'm concerned, it becomes very much the person that we elect tonight
    will make the decisions about those kind of things. What we're talking
    about is knowing that there is no possible disenfranchisement of the
    current eleven members of the IX°.
 BREEZE: (silence for a moment) Uh, sure.
 GRAEB: Jim Eshelman to the floor.
 ESHELMAN: I should think we could simplify it even further. All excuses to
    the side, all things that are agreed upon to the side, one think that
    you're asking about is would he accept ... whether this caliph election
    to be for the rest of his or her life subject to expulsion by unanimous
    vote of the eleven people sitting as IX°s tonight.
 WASSERMAN: Only unanimous and only these people.
 BREEZE: Sure.
 GRAEB: Bill Heidrick, would you respond to that?
 HEIDRICK: Well, that is an improvement over the present by-laws and I think
    at some point it should be put in. I would like to, win, lose or draw,
    have at least two steps taken in that direction tonight. One of them, the
    process of impeachment, whereby rather than just waiting until we can
    get around to calling this meeting after a statutory two weeks, a
    certain numbers of members of the Supreme Council, acting inside or
    outside of its meetings can impeach "Caliph", Treasurer or Secretary and
    limit their activity to the activity agreed by the other two officers
    until they can be tried and acquitted or convicted and removed from
    office. One other thing, if I could add. I also feel that the hazard we
    had going with Grady, which he was finally (inaudible) enough to
    control, of having IX°s suddenly appear in the case of somebody wanting
    to get rid of the "Caliph" in greater number than the ones that presently
    exist, needs to be considered.
 WASSERMAN: I specifically said these eleven people.
 HEIDRICK: Well, I would suggest that the easiest thing to do there is to
    provide a means for enfranchising somebody else. And the "Caliph" could
    be one of the ammendments I've offered, the "Caliph" could continue to
    make IX°s with reasonable conversation with the people who should help
    him, or her, we still haven't really eliminated anybody, and the present
    IX°s should have the right to refuse or accept their power to vote. As
    simple as that, one ammendment, you've got it.
 WASSERMAN. That, I think, is the future. My question was our eleven people
    and in the future that could be discussed. I just feel that this way we
    avoid any possibility of being concerned that any one individual can
    "pack" any group in his or her favor. We have a IX° that was established
    by our last "Caliph" (partially drowned out by interruption from
    Heidrick) the X° to deal with the next OHO. But as an emergency OHO the
    "Caliph" must be subject to this group, of emergency pro tem
    transitional X°s.
 GRAEB: The "Caliph" is not a full de jure OHO.
 WASSERMAN:: Not yet.
 HEIDRICK: I would suggest that you get to work on an ammendment for
    that basis.
 GRAEB: All right, I'm going to take control back. Let's not get into a
    discussion on the ammendment of the current by-laws at this time.
 ESHELMAN: The question is whether the candidate would accept such.
 GRAEB: Would accept such, and I think the questions have been answered to
    satisfaction. Jim, do you have any further questions? I'll give you one
 WASSERMAN: No, thank you.
 GRAEB: All right. Shirine?
 MORTON: No questions to ask.
 GRAEB: Michael, you're next on the list.
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: All right, a quick question. What, I'll ask Bill Breeze and
    then Bill Heidrick, what would you do immediately in terms of addressing
    the next say, two to four month transitional period that we've
    envisioned for the new officer in the position of "Caliph"? Can you give
    us some specific actions that you would be taking in the next two to six
    months, say, and very briefly, so that we can get an idea or a feeling
    for what practical matters you're trying to put in place. Whether for a
    sanction of the same sort of system that we've had going, or ammendments
    to the existing system or improvements or whatever. First of all,
 BREEZE: Well, I'd have to preface all of that by a remark that all of us
    here has been caught very much by surprise. I hadn't made in my personal
    life any preparations for ... this, because I quite frankly, two weeks
    ago, it hadn't crossed my mind. I think I was basically drafted. And
    it'll be necessary in the next two to six months to get my personal life
    in order, you know, in a fashion that's practical to have with the
    office. As far as concrete actions to be taken I think the first thing
    to do would be the initial issue of a magzine which would give some
    ideological press to the new current, because I do know that this is the
    new current. I do hope that a great deal of discussion is going to be
    necessary about us all, so that, I mean after all this has been done
    here, work out the best and smoothest, because basically, if I were
    elected to "Caliph", I would be given a mandate toward the establishment
    of the Blue Equinox, and I want to see that happen just as quickly as is
    possible. I also think that implementing the Blue Equinox does not
    entail any compromises that would entail our financial integrity, in
    fact I think that it would enhance it somewhat.
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: Can you be a little more specific?
 BREEZE: I do want to embark on a tax study to see what can be done about
    notifying the IRS. We have no problems now, we owe our original Lodge
    and things to the efforts of those here in the room, we have a Federal
    Court decision here in the United States that we're a religion. That
    will hold up as far as the IRS is concerned. There are significant tax
    advantages to that position, I think we should exploit them to the
    fullest. This eventually develop into a (inaudible), where people could
    presumably have their gross income paid directly by the O.T.O. take take
    home directly out of the treasury of the Order. This is done in any
    number of religious institutions, I'd like to know what's involved in
    that, I don't really have those answers yet. All we know is that the
    competition is well aware that that's the way to do it. And they're
    profiting by it and they're growing. I intend to go outside of the
    O.T.O. to get that done. See some specialists and some lawyers
    (inaudible, GRAEB has coughing fit)
 GRAEB: Can you bring this to a conclusion?
 BREEZE: Well, are you satisfied with my answer?
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: Yes, I think you've addressed it, I just didn't want to cut
    you out. Bill, could you give us an idea of the next two to six months,
    what we might expect if any changes?
 HEIDRICK: Yes, in the general operation there would be no change. There
    would of course have to be some shifting of duties, I have checked
    around and if I am elected "Caliph" I will suggest Josh Gordon to serve
    the reminder of my former term as Grand Treasurer General. He has the
    three requisites that the job requires, he is independently well off, so
    he's not going to walk home with any of it, he has data processing
    abilities par excellence, and he's sufficiently demented to be
    interested. (laughter) And beyond that, it would be a gradual phase over
    and probably a breaking up of the duties that have been accumulated
    under my umbrella. I think there would be relatively little difference
    in Mr. Breeze's working conceptions and mine, because I'm going to do
    the dirty trick Alladdin did to the genie. We have two excellent
    candidates here for the office of "Caliph" and if I'm elected I'm going
    to do the best I can to implement most of the projects that have been
    suggested. And to that end, I agree with Breeze we need to coordinate
    again, I don't think he understands how much money we have in the bowl.
    The Magickal Link, including International postage and all printing,
    costs about two hundred and fifty a month. A quality quarterly is going
    to cost more than dispensing with three Magickal Links would provide. But
    I think the royalties from copyright, which will come in perhaps longer
    than the period you addressed, will provide us with the means. I think
    after nine months of the money soaked into the court case and the legal
    costs we'll reverse itself, we'll find ourselves with double the income
    that we had before, because we've worked hard enough to gain it. And
    finally, I believe that we need to tri-base the Order's records. At the
    present time, and I really thought a little about this while Grady was
    alive, but it didn't hit me until the thought came that there just might
    be a few people out there that didn't understand day to day operations
    or their importance. With a couple of mistakes we could blow this whole
    thing. I don't mean the mystical side, that's immortal. I mean the
    overlap of it with our incarnations. There's a little business of
    keeping track of records, and by default, most of that's landed in my
    hands. I think those records need to be duplicated and I think they need
    to be simultaneously maintained on the East Coast and on the West Coast,
    and in the Electoral College. And that's the major change that I would
    make in that early period.
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: One more question, if I may. I'll address this to both,
    beginning with Bill Breeze. What would you do, so as to heal the Order
    of it's divisiveness and send it on a course that will help generate
    unity in the coming time?
 BREEZE: Well, it's really a question of bringing the Order back to first
    principles, and to a significant extent de-politicizing the Order. The
    O.T.O. was never intended, I believe, to be as heavily political as it
    is. Most of us here are well versed with O.T.O. jurisprudence, you might
    call it. We understand pretty well how the various disputes and
    misunderstandings can be resolved ... I think those mechanisms will in
    and of themselves, as soon as everybody understands they hate to be
    there, and that's what they're there for, for it to heal a lot of this.
    A lot of the concussion the Order is suffering here has been due to
    individuals who were in the unfortunate and uncomfortable position of
    backing such bodies of the Electoral College into existence. And the
    (inaudible) make up a rule to cover a spot situation, and in the process
    made mistakes. We never hear about people's successes. (inaudible) If we
    all know our Blue Equinox, if we all know which channels to contact to
    resolve disputes, I see a healing of the divisiveness that comes to the
    Order in the realization of the design we all should abide to.
 MICHELLE RIPPLE: Bill, may I address that question to you?
 HEIDRICK: You may, if you'd give it to me as a focus. Briefly.
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: What would you do at this point to heal the divisiveness
    that has existed in the Order over the last, say, six months
    specifically, and if you want me to be more specific I can.
 HEIDRICK: Well, you can if you want after I get a shot at--
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: Some of the problems with dues not being paid, missing
    communications between people, arguments, people not speaking to one
 HEIDRICK: I think coventry is not right. I think. it's a major
    problem. If you refuse to communicate with a brother or sister,
    inevitably there's going to be a problem. Because the worst is always
    what's remembered. It's failures that stand out. One thing that the
    Order has suffered from in the last few years is Grady's ill health and
    inability to travel. Somehow, if I'm elected "Caliph", I will find
    myself grinning and exiting my home and enjoying airplanes. (loud
    laughter, incredulity) I feel that the only real way to settle a problem
    is to put a man or a woman on the scene. Not only the "Caliph", but I'd say
    the "Caliph" has to get around to a minimum of three places a year.
 SECKLER: The Electoral College, too.
 HEIDRICK: The main thing is you need somebody who can walk into a
    situation, see a fight and treat it like animals rather than people,
    because when people are in that state they're not rational. The way you
    treat fighting animals is you divert their attention. You don't get
    between them. (laughter) And then when they become capable of listening
    a bit more, you have to have the experience to tell them what to do.
    I've found that this tone of voice which I'm using on you now is capable
    of lulling someone to sleep. Even little things like that you have to
    employ techniques, you can only do it on the site, I think that
    communication is the key to all such dispute problems, I think it has to
    be two ways, if it's cut off deliberately, although, it can be cut off
    by lack of capacity in one direction, that direction's at fault. And
    there is no dispute until the communication is restored. As long as
    there is no communication there is no argument and the side not
    communicating is at fault. And the only way to solve that and be right
    is to talk. And sometimes the side that's convinced its right, that has
    been trying to communicate really ought to go down there and see what's
    going on. And that is something I haven't been able to do as a Grand
    Treasurer General, and after a couple of months, after winter, please,
    spring and summer, if I get to be "Caliph", I expect somebody to pay for
    my ticket. And I think one of the first things I need to do is to go up
    to Edmonton. And hopefully I won't be shot on sight in Orange, County
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: Thank you Bill. Is that all that you were going to--
 HEIDRICK: Yeah. I think being there is the basic answer.
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: Okay, I have no further questions at this time.
 GRAEB: Bill, as you indicated earlier, you have requested to pass this time
    for cross. (yes) Then comes me. I'll be stepping down as chairman for a
    second. (waits for Lola to change tape) Bill Breeze. We chatted earlier
    today a little bit, after listening to all the conversations, all the
    many, many well said questions and answers, I still have a fundamental
    concern that while everyone in this room wants to see implementation of
    the Blue Equinox I'm concerned that you don't have experience
    running--there's eleven of us in here, you don't have experience running
    the entire Ordo Templi Orientis, you're new at it, not to say you can't
    do it. My concern is that you are going to rush in and make radical
    changes toward Blue Equinox implementation, something which may take
    five to six years, easily, before this whole Supreme Grand
    Council-Areopagus-X°s throughout the world ready to elect an OHO, et
    cetera--we,'re still pretty much bootstrap. In other words, in one
    sentence, I'm afraid that you're going to try to turn the wheel too
    quickly and lose some of our membership. Rather than continue to see the
    Order grow. My question is; can you assuage my concern?
 BREEZE: Well, I hope so. There would be the need for ammendments to our
    existing by-lays. There are certain things that are cosmetic, it could
    be, done immediately ... the Supreme Council has always been an
    interesting entity. It has subsumed most of the functions of the higher
    bodies of the O.T.O. Some of the most troublesome and
    resolution-generating issues facing the Supreme Council remain matters
    of government and matters of trial, which is basically what we've had so
    far. The Electoral College therefore assumes extreme impotance. I don't
    know, I mean, what's the consensus here in the room, do we feel that
    within a year the Electoral College could, in fact, assume
    responsibility for the Man of Earth triad? (yes) That's that. That
    leaves the Supreme Council's duties largely ccnfined to business matters
    and appeals.
 GRAEB: And by-law ammendments.
 HEIDRICK: And review. Review of the actions of the Electoral College.
 GRAEB: Let me take it for a second. We've all read the Blue Equinox, we all
    have the power to interpret. I think if you asked all eleven of us to
    write down how the system works I don't think you'd come up with eleven
    exactly identical systems. Grady had the wisdom to defer to us in a
    certain sense whenever that came down. He didn't claim infallibility.
    What checks are you going to put upon yourself to make sure that you
    don't take on more authority than you can handle? In other words, are
    you planning any radical by-law changes? What checks are you going to
    place upon yourself as "Caliph"? Again, Grady never used veto power, not
    to say it can't be used, but he never used it. What checks are you going
    to place upon yourself to prevent overly autocratic--
 BREEZE: It's very simple, the basic check. I hope it will be well
    understood here. The basic check that I would want to impose on myself
    would be secrecy. I don't expect to work directly with the Electoral
    College. I feel that the Electoral College should be answerable to an
    appeals body, which at this point is the Supreme Council. It has the
    power of review. At some time it would be nice to have a Supreme Grand
    Council, which is the proper body for that. There is actually,
    (inaudible aside) plenty of precedent for creating VII°s. It would be
    possible to actually create a Supreme Grand Council.
 SECKLER: Who has the property to give to the Order to actually be a VII°?
 BREEZE: The vow of poverty has not been implemented.
 GRAEB: I'll take it back, I've, got five more minutes. I want to thank you.
    Bill Heidrick, my concern is just the opposite. That you won't move
    quickly enough to implement the Blue Equinox, and things will stay too
    static, the way they are, therefore alienating members, and we'll lose
    our membership. Can you assuage my concerns?
 HEIDRICK: I'd be just as much of an asshole in that respect as Grady ever
    was. Grady never did much of this. He just simply said "do it", and gave
    the power to the man and the woman that want the law. Every one of us
    except Helen and Phyllis, who are beyond the veil and in the time of our
    worthy master Baphomet himself, and it is not in my knowledge how they
    got where they are, every one of us IX°s did something unique. And I
    think the same thing is the nature of all the advancements. If Eshelman
    did something unique--I heard about the paper bikinis (minor pandemonium
    breaks out) What you did was a nice example. You got the shit kicked out
    of you and you came up, and then asked for more, and then after that you
    decided to do something, take over something that had been properly
    raised as an issue and never worked out sufficiently, and now we have an
    Electoral College. It's yours. You did it. I think that's the only way
    these things are done. I've been criticized as Grand Treasurer General
    for trying to do everything, and the reason I've been trying to do
    everything is largely because a lot of these babies looked like they
    were worth saving. But as "Caliph" I think my duties would be quite a
    bit different. I would still have to play around with the computer,
    that,'s part of the fun, but I think I would also have to find other
    people with bright ideas. The only way to find them is by being a place
    they can get a chance to try it out at. In other words, I don't think
    it's up to the "Caliph" to advance the Blue Equinox deliberately. I
    think the "Caliph" is in that one sense the foam on the wave. It's up,
    to the wave. And the wave is that person who comes along with the idea
    and the guts to implement it. The "Caliph"'s job is to ride that wave.
 SECKLER: You're right, we've got an awful lot of talent in the Order now. We
    didn't start with it but we've got it now.
 GRAEB: I have no further questions. (to Michelle) Since you were recognised
    as a IX° today, I don't know what the date of your paper is, I was
    going to do, Andrea then Lola then you.
 GRAEB: You're kind of a surprise on my list. I have no more questions and I
    don't want to delay this thing any longer. Andrea, you're next.
 LACEDONIA: Okay, I'll be very brief. First of all, I'm going to ask a
    question to each of you and I'd like you answer it as quickly as you
    can. (she and Breeze are apparently seated far from the recorder as they
    are barely audible. Andrea asks how many people are in Breeze's Lodge,
    from the context of replies and later answers.)
 BREEZE: Probably realistically about thirty-five.
 LACEDONIA: And of the original, how many remain.
 BREEZE: No that was the actual real time population.
 LACEDONIA: Oh, that was the highest. Okay.
 ESHELMAN: Wait a minute, I was confused. Are you talking about the Lodge? I
    thought you were asking professional.
 LACEDONIA: No, I'm talking about your Chapter, Lodge. You answer that.
 ESHELMAN: From day to day, we still haven't drawn sharp lines between
    Heru-Ra-Ha and Baphomet, nor am I eager to. However, we have had between
    a dozen and two dozen people who seem to be centering around and
    attending classes and masses and getting their initiations.
 LACEDONIA: About how many activities a month?
 ESHELMAN: (conveniently repeats question) Varied, minimum of half a dozen.
 LACEDONIA: And how many activities did the group that you worked with in
    Canada have, Bill?
 BREEZE: My experience with Lodge managament was experimental. I adopted a
    philosophy of leaving the members pretty much up to themselves as to
    what their peculiar activities were. (laughter)
 LACEDONIA: And Bill Heidrick, even though you handled the whole group as
    such, if we don't include the whole group, how many? In a singular
    activity, how many people have you managed to control?
 HEIDRICK: Well, I'm afraid you've managed to give me an impossible question
    because it is the whole group that I've managed.
 LACEDONIA: I understand that but where you actually took charge.
 HEIDRICK: When I taught high school I had five classes a day, average
    enrollment twenty to thirty, is that what you're after?
 LACEDONIA: Within the Order.
 HEIDRICK: Within the Order, seven hundred.
 LACEDONIA: Again to each of you. Bill Breeze, how many hours ... first of
    all I'd like to know how many hours a week do you give to your job? Your
    regular job.
 BREEZE: Probably fifty hours a week.
 LACEDONIA: And how many hours do you think you should put in as "Caliph"?
 BREEZE: That really depends on how you define the position. The way I see
    this position ... well, there's also a lot of overlap. A lot of the
    things that I do in my free time ...
 LACEDONIA: How many hours do you think it should take to be "Caliph"?
 BREEZE: Well, I don't know, including what I do in my free time...
 LACEDONIA: So that's how many hours a week?
 BREEZE: (inaudible)
 LACEDONIA: Okay, Eshelman?
 ESHELMAN: I work between forty and fifty. I just finished last week
    restructuring my job so probably it would be closer to forty. I have a
    lot more free time. I've looked over Bill Heidrick's outline and
    estimates and so forth, and took one copy and tried to do a little
    management thinking and tightening and so forth,and it looks like,
    excluding special trips and special events for which I now take off a
    similar amount of time, we're talking about a twenty to thirty hour a
    week job. It can be tightened up, quite a lot.
 LACEDONIA: Okay, and Bill Heidrick, how many hours a week do you think it
    takes to be a "Caliph"?
 HEIDRICK: Well, I think as far as the "Caliph" is concerned you're mostly
    talking about an on-call for twenty-four hours a day. I think that's
    sort of a dirty life to lead so I would like to drop that down to at
    least a six hour period at night where you can't reach the "Caliph" come
    hell or high water. But as far as direct involvement work I'd say the
    sky is the limit. It could be as low as ten hours a week, it could be as
    high as--how many hours are there in a week?
 LACEDONIA: So you don't have any other commitments that--
 HEIDRICK: All I know--no, I'm independently just barely making it. I've
    inherited enough money that I don't ever have to worry about gainful
    employment. Again. Period.
 LACEDONIA: One last question for all of you. The "Caliph" is not only
    "Caliph" of the O.T.O., he's the Patriarch of the E.G.C. How would you
    handle that? (argument breaks out. Andrea interrupts and directs
    question to Breeze)
 BREEZE: This may be controversial, but I feel that the E.G.C. is an
    integral part of the O.T.O. In a sense, to divorce it from. the O.T.O.
    would damage the O.T.O. irreparably. Crowley's on record as
    stating--it's in the Confessions--that the Gnostic Mass is the central
    rite, public and private, of the O.T.O. In the list of component bodies
    that were--the O.T.O. is an extremly synthetic organization composed of
    component bodies, the one at the top is the Gnostic Catholic Church. It
    makes no more sense to spin off the E.G.C. then it does to spin off the
    Hermetic Brotherhood of Light or Sat Bhai or any other of the essential
    parts. I feel that the E.G.C. as such can be, well, first principle is
    that in a developing area the E.G.C. authority is virtually identical
    with the O.T.O. authority. It's been seen again and again, the results
    of having two developing Thelemic authorities in the same geographical
    area. You're really asking for trouble. (inaudible)
 LACEDONIA: Would you drop the Church?
 BREEZE: The Church is part of the O.T.O.
 LACEDONIA: Would you discontinue it as a separate organization?
 BREEZE: I would recommend that.
 LACEDONIA: What about the foreign countries out there that are--allowed to
    have religious groups but are not allowed to have Masonic groups?
 BREEZE: If the O.T.O., in order to function in a foreign country, needs to
    operate inside the E.G.C., then that's a useful function for the E.G.C.
    As long as the people involved in it see and understand that that's the
 LACEDCNIA: Jim Eshelman, same question.
 ESHELMAN: The Gnostic Catholic Mass, Liber XV, is an O.T.O. ritual. The
    E.G.C. existed before it ever became part of the O.T.O. save that the
    E.G.C. is, in general, an integral part of the O.T.O. is in my mind,
    identical with the Scottish Rite is part of the O.T.O. We also subsume
    the mysteries and instructions and so on of the Scottish Rite. I don't
    have many strong feelings on this at all. I could easily be moved in
    either direction, I'm inclined to continue to let the E.G.C. continue to
    exist as an individual autonomous body. At the moment, the by-laws of
    the E.G.C.--the "Caliph" is also the Patriarch or Matriarch of the
    E.G.C. and I don't think that necessarily needs to continue. The fact
    that "Who's in charge now" in each area indicates to me that, in the
    forseeable future, down the road there's going to be quite a close
    interaction and cooperation and similarity of interest. Basically the
    E.G.C. is made up of O.T.O. members.
 HEIDRICK: No it's not.
 ESHELMAN: Let's say the E.G.C. leadership. So far. So I have no objection
    to it existing independently, I have no strong feelings on it and if you
    decided to go against my best advice and elect me Caliph, I would
    totally leave it up to the E.G.C., the Council of Bishops--
 end of side five
 LACEDONIA: How do you feel, there are some people out there who are very
    interested in Thelema who can't afford to pay dues, and the E.G.C.
    doesn't charge any dues, so they can be involved in--
 ESHELMAN: We don't charge anything for admission to our Mass, whether it's
    put on by the O.T.O. or by the E.G.C.
 LACEDONIA: I understand that, but what I'm saying is that they can't really
    be part of the O.T.O. unless they pay dues.
 ESHELMAN: That's true.
 LACEDONIA: So say, they could pay part of it, but--
 ESHELMAN: You could do that, but although for the E.G.C to be viable it has
    to have it's own internal independant--it has to have it's own internal
    financial stock.
 HEIDRICK: Well, I agree with Jim Eshelman and disagree with Bill Breeze..
    Sat Bhai, Hermetic Brotherhood of Light, Gnostic Catholic Church, via
    Papus these are independent organizations from the beginning. O.T.O. was
    born in part and united in part as a fusion of these organizations.
    Where we can, I think we have an obligation to turn them back into the
    world from whence they came and retain in ourselves the fusion. That's on
    one level. There are two other levels to this question I'd like to
    address. This business about the finances. We have an O.T.O. which is
    largely comprised of near paupers. Most of the members can't afford the
    dues that are charged. Fifteen bucks a year.
 ESHELMAN: All geographic areas?
 HEIDRICK: All geographic areas.
 WASSERMAN: That's not true in New York.
 ESHELMAN: That's not true in our area.
 HEIDRICK: No, because most of them have split. They couldn't pay the dues.
    We have Mike Cramer's Lodge, or Chapter. Three quarters of the members
    there don't pay any dues.
 WASSERMAN: Now wait a second.
 HEIDRICK: I'm not talking about one year, I'm talking, about four years.
 WASSERMAN: Yeah, but none of them will be initiated to a new degree until he or
    she does pay back dues.
 HEIDRICK: You missed my observation. My observation is that this is a
    problem. There should be something in Thelema, now I'm branching out a
    bit, like there is in every other religion and philosophy. There is a
    core, which is an Order. There is a fundamental outreach, which is free.
    And the E.G.C. is free. And the Order should support it, like the
    underbelly of Thelema. Just as the O.T.O. should also support the works
    and efforts of A.A. as the highest end of Thelema. The O.T.O. should
    fundamentally get its shit together and get enough money together so that
    it can administer to the people who haven't gotten it organized and can
    benefit most by exposure to Thelem, and so it can provide Sanctuaries for
    those who need that sanctuary. For the higher work of Thelema. E.G.C. is
    the bottom of Thelema, A.A. can be the expression of the top of Thelema,
    O.T.O. is the workhouse in the middle. The three grades are not only
    reflected within each organization, they reflected in the combination of
    the three organizations. And finally, as "Caliph" and Patriarch, I would
    attend the meetings of the board of the E.G.C. as well as those of the
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: Didn't Grady attend E.G.C. meetings?
 HEIDRICK: Yes, he did.
 SECKLER: When he could.
 GRAEB: It's 10:30 already. Bill, I'll give you a one minute retort.
 BREEZE: Just in support, I want to hand these out, one of you already has a
    copy, my position is basically to sum again, that the E.G.C. is
    essentially the pinnacle of the O.T.O. The IX° is the concentrations of
    the E.G.C., and if this doesn't make is as clear as I can make it, nothing
    will. This is a Crowley ritual, by the way.
 GRAEB: Andrea, any more questions?
 LACEDONIA: That's it.
 GRAEB: Lola.
 WOLFE: Everything's pretty much been covered except one thing that I would
    like to know about, and that's the fact that I am an Emir at the present
    time, and if you were to move everything back to New York, would I be able
    to get copies of tapes of the meetings? I've always, in fact when I was
    GSG I wanted to have everyone locked into a closet and forced to listen to
    the minutes so they'd know what's going on (laughter) and some people have
    been sort of adamant that the tapes should be sent out for various
    reasons, I want a copy. Would that be kosher to you? (everyone talks at
 BREEZE: Whatever body develops that is equivalent to the Supreme Council ago
    is working with the corporate board--there are strong traditions of
    secrecy in corporate life but this body is enfranchised by this body, and
    any of you, I should think, should be entitled to copies of the tapes.
    There might be a small cost associated with that, I mean in terms of
    taking them to be duplicated. (Helen, Phyllis and Lola conduct a barely
    audible discussion on tapes)
 WOLFE: You can require them to be destroyed within thirty days, but I don't
    see how a person can be an Emir without--
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: The IX°s can't keep up if they don't--(discussion)--okay. If
    you were the "Caliph", would you give the IX°s more power to do things if
    you were on the East Coast without the IX°s having to get permission every
    time they turn around?
 HEIDRICK: Well, let s put it this way--it depends on the things. We've had
    IX°s go so far as to order coventry for a woman with a newborn baby in the
    middle of a New York winter. Nobody can talk to her because he thinks
    she's a problem. Fortunately that one has gone from the Order. Chris
    D*** did that to Jayne Hilyer and little Amber-- no, it might have been
    Leila. (Argument discloses that it was Amber, as Leila was in utero at the
    time) As an overview, on one level it is necessary because people can make
    mistakes which can emperil human life, and their opinions are valued
    highly. As far as deciding to initiate, I'd say there is a factor. If the
    initiation is timely, reported and no great number of mistakes are
    made--for example, if somebody comes in from out of town getting bumped up
    without anybody finding out if they've made a practice of running off with
    neighbors property--a local group should have an increasing degree of
    autonomy in promotions. But I think the only way to get it is to show that
    there is a clear understanding. Best example is in modern art. You show me
    an abstract painting and I would want to see what the guy's done, as an
    artist, as a classical piece, to find out if that thing was an accident or
    on purpose. And it's the same thing with running an Order.
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: What are you going to do with the job that you have now, if
    you're our "Caliph"?
 HEIDRICK: Well, give the minimum level of it to Josh Gordor with the
    agreemert of this body. And then Josh will take on other parts of it, and
    he'll attempt to redesign it so that it can be operated by people with
    less time and involvement. See, I'm going to die someday anyway. So
    preferably we're going to have to do that work. Bill Breeze would do it,
    Jim Eshelman could do it and Josh Gordon happens to be in the neighborhood
    and can sign the checks. He wrote a good piece of the Unix system and he's
    expert in computers.
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: It takes a lot of time.
 HEIDRICK: It does.
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: I'm finished.
 GRAEB: Shirine.
 MORTON: I've a question. Everybody asked all my other questions. I belong to
    another organization, Bill, that operates its board meetings four times a
    year by conference call. Now I realize that right now financially the
    Order is not able to afford that, but with hopefully more money coming,
    into the Order, do you see this as a feasible way to operate a board so
    that all board members could participate in at least two or three meetings
    a year by conference call?
 BREEZE: I think that's the best idea so far. Far preferable to proxies, since
    it's a confusing position to hold proxies. And I'm not sure that it'll
    necessarily be that expensive in terms of long distance dialing services.
    I'm really not familiar with board room. operations as opposed to monthly
 MORTON: How do you feel about that?
 HEIDRICK: Well, I think that conference calls are a nice thing, but you
    can't have a bi-play between the members. You can't get into small
    groups, even while someone else is talking, and prepare the next piece
    together. There's a lot lost by not being in the same room with each
    other. I think quarterly meetings would depend on the degree to which
    the next "Caliph" earns the confidence of the Order to work without
    constant supervision. The last one, bless his memory, needed a lot of
    help. Supervision by the Supreme Council to make sure the "Caliph"
    wasn't being overloaded and forgetting his own name. With Grady, it took
    every month to make sure that he hadn't forgotten certain things, or
    hadn't become overstressed by one person or another demanding initiation
    to the point where his ears were so full of it that he ... exceeded. I
    think with a younger Person in that role a lot more executive decisions
    could be made and a quarterly meeting would be a feasible thing. But I
    don't like conference calls as a regular thing because it turns into a
    television kind of watch--where you've only got a part of the
    involvement that's necessary. The meetings out here have bordered on
    encounter sessions and sometimes transcended them.. And you can't really
    do that without personal presence. Also I feel there's something
    inherently magickal in being in the room with people. There's more here
    than just the voice. The ability to throw them. a tape cassette and say
    "Here, you transcribe it".
 MORTON: I have one more question. A lot has been bandied about about the V°
    Senate, and do you forsee. a development within the Order so that a lot
    of the, activity and work of the Order can be decentralized to local
    organizations thereby taking the lesser stuff out of the governing body
    of the bord, and I sat on the board for four years, so I know a lot of
    what goes on--and put it down into regional, and allow the board to work
    on more intrinsic situations. In other words, decentralize a lot of the
    organization down to local government.
 BREEZE: It is in a sense a function of the Electoral College. The 1917
    Constitution, which recently surfaced, so you might not have had a
    chance to see it because it's not really widely circulated yet, it's the
    international O.T.O. constitution and it's basically in consonance with
    the Blue Equinox constitution, and it suggests that every Lodge has a
    responsibility to formulate its own by-laws, and that they're approved
    by the OHO, or Supreme Council, whatever the case may be. That is a form
    of local organization which permits variance and local color. I'm not
    sure exactly of what sort of activities you mean, but in principle
    decentralization is in essence what we're talking about, both in the
    vertical structure of the Order, in terms of Thelemic bodies but also in
    terms of inter-relations--the Electoral College interacts with the
    government in all these kinds of corporate bodies. You know, they have
    to have the ability to be different. As long as we know in which ways
    they are different, that's fine.
 MORTON: Bill, how do you feel on decentralization?
 HEIDRICK: I think decentralization is fine with one element of shining
    paranoia thrown in. There has to be a way to make sure that essential
    operations, and by that I also include taking care of people's rights in
    the field, aren't entrenched or broken down in the outer world. As long
    as you decentralize, you're going to be able to do more, and there's a
    bigger scope for Thelema to expand. There's also a bigger scope for a
    local tyrant to set up. And we've had those happen in a number of
    places. Some of them are so far away we can't tell whether anything has
    happened there or not. Phyllis and I had a talk about a report from New
 GRAEB: Our tribes. It's 10:43. I'd like to close. With your consensus, I'd
    like to take ten more minutes to let the two Bills chat at most for ten
    minutes, to 10:55, at which point we will take a break, come back in
    here and elect the "Caliph".
 BREEZE: With the removal--
 HEIDRICK: Well not very far, they've got to learn some time tonight,
    especially if one of them's elected.
 ESHELMAN: As to what you discussed before and as a candidate I have a
    series of questions for the other candidates.
 GRAEB: Right, that's what I'm saying. I'm going to give ten minutes for the
    three candidates, then we will take a break and ask you gentlemen to
    leave the room, then we'll come back in and elect the "Caliph". Does
    anybody object? It's 10:45, we've got ten more minutes.
 ESHELMAN: Apiece?
 GRAEB: No, together. We have to wait while Lola changes the tape ...
 HEIDRICK: 'Twas brillig [?]... That's not a comment, it's a reaction to
    mental strain.
 GRAEB: Well, everybody's under mental strain. It's a good chance to see you
    in action.
 SECKLER: Nobody had better call me before noon tomorrow.
 GRAEB: Tape's ready. All right, ten minutes. Go.
 HEIDRICK: Attack.
 ESHELMAN: Only trying to be a little sarcastic and realizing we're friends,
    I see a new Heidrick coming out here that we haven't seen any time in
    the history that I've known, and I want to know--could you tell me the
    difference between this and the new Nixon?
 HEIDRICK: This one you can kick around some more. This one isn't in a
    position of having the job that says no. Essentially, working for Grady,
    my biggest role was to say no and make it stick, or very difficult to
    break. 'Cause Grady was very fond of saying yes. Sometimes to questions
    that hadn't been asked.
 GRAEB: Yeah, I need my XV°.
 HEIDRICK: We need to figure out what the hell that is, but I think that
    you're going to have to go rather beyond mechanical sex with fire
 ESHELMAN: A question for both of you is; Will each of you fully cooperate,
    no matter who wins, and give everything you've got to the other guy if
    the other guy wins?
 HEIDRICK: Yes, and I think that includes trouble if I think he's going in the
    wrong direction.
 ESHELMAN: Bill Breeze, I have heard rumors of division in Canada, East versus
    West. You're in the center of the Eastern Canada thing, is there a
    division or conflict, what's your relationship with Western Canada, et
 BREEZE: I know the guy, and he gets along pretty well with Toronto, and he
    gets along reasonably well with Western Canada. He has problems right now.
    Canada's a peculiar situation, with three opposing groups and I mean to
    get all three people in a room some time soon ... (inaudible) ... the
    differences are probably imaginary, if they ever exist.
 GRAEB: I've learned from past experience that when people don't talk to each
    other differences get bigger, and when they sit down and have a drink or
    dinner together, they seem to vanish awful fast.
 HEIDRICK: Depending on the strength of the drink.
 BREEZE: Bill, you have expressed in the past that you simply do not accept
    the vow of poverty.
 HEIDRICK: Not exactly true. My view of the vow of poverty is that there are a
    couple of problems with it. First of all it's not, in simple terms, a
    Thelemic vow to take from someone else. It's essentially the vow of
    indenture. You give your property in this world into the keeping of
    someone else. And no matter what else it is you're removing from yourself
    most of the options of life. I think that the vow of poverty can be taken
    but before I address that I'd like to give two more quick kicks to it.
    Crowley held that you should continue in the state of life to which you
    were when you entered the Order. Essentially, the class system of the
    English school was the valid one for all the world. I don't think that's
    right. I think other cultures depend on stasis much more so than the
    British. I think the vow of poverty, in the absolute sense, is only for
    those cultures that don't allow upward movement, because it fixes you in a
    place where you can't do anything else. It's also hell on marriage,
    extremely rough on kids--although in a properly balanced society it can be
    marvelous for children. But it also tends to destroy an organization. Look
    at all these utopian colonies around the United States, especially in the
    last century. Some of them are so successful that you can buy the
    spin-offs of their product like today. The Oneida colony had carezza--one
    of the variations that you can introduce into the IX°. But they also had
    vows of poverty, or the next best thing, in a very literal sense I think
    that the proper vow of poverty first depends on volition of the person
    makind the vow. Not so much the degree of membership. And then I think it
    depends on the organization possessing enough financial solvency to be
    able to sustain the person at the level of which they were living. There
    is another problem there--if you're working for a living and you stop
    seeing your money you don't work as hard. A vow of poverty in the direct
    and literal sense for somebody outside working means you have to brainwash
    them to keep them working. And finally, I think the ultimate and best form
    of the vow of poverty is the dedication of one's life and worldly goods to
    the Order's purposes. You are responsible for it, my house is full of
    stuff, some of it which I may have dreamed about but certainly never
    wanted., and I bought that with my own property, my own money. Sold a life
    insurance policy, got a printing press, a bunch of tapes--I don't listen
    to that stuff that much, I don't run that press too much on my own--that,
    I think, is a proper vow of poverty. You find your likes and you live by
    them, and whatever there's a choice you hand it in the directions of the
    Order. Now there are technical means of getting tax breaks, things like
    that. I'm in favor of those, but I want to see them compounded by somebody
    who knows tax law. And until I do, I'm against it.
 GRAEB: A few more minutes. Go ahead, gentlemen.
 ESHELMAN: Mr. Heidrick, what do you consider to be the proper criteria for
    advancement to V°?
 HEIDRICK: Proper criteria for advancement to V° is that A), you've done
    something to show that you are interested in continuing in the Order
    beyond V° or you've been in it so long nobody cares if you move on or not.
    I think if you're just the average member you should make V° after three or
    four years. If you've done something locally I think you should have, and
    by something I mean supported your local group in a non-essential
    way--something that didn't change the nature of what was happening in your
    area but supported. Then, two to three years--by these time blocks I'm
    just saying that these are external criteria. I'll hit the internal ones
    elsewhere. If you've done some outstanding work I think two years or less.
    If you've done something that changes the whole arrangement of the Order
    in some particular I think you ought to be moved faster than V°. Now, as
    far as the inner accomplishment is concerned, I'm sorry and stunned to say
    there is no means for measuring that at the present time. We can have
    people who teach but unless we can audit their classes we don't know what
    they teach. That's a good step in the direction of the V°.
 DUQUETTE: You can hear it on tape.
 HEIDRICK: No, that's not, you've got to listen to the tape too. And we're
    talking about an increasing number of candidates. So the only thing that I
    have to judge the inner attainment of a person for the V° is what has
    been their impact on the lives around them.
 GRAEB: One minute.
 HEIDRICK: Most specifically, have they improved their friend's acceptance of
    other people?
 ESHELMAN: Thank you. Mr. Breeze, same question.
 BREEZE: I don't have any hard and fast ideas on the subject. There definitely
    has to be criteria. The only objective criteria possible are facts, and I
    imagine testing would be the equivalent of a--I think paper might be in
    order. I think an examination in O.T.O. law, an understanding of the
    O.T.O. system, an exam, perhaps. Just to demonstrate their familiarity
    with local bodies. And presuming--you might not know what is in the books
    but at least you know what the information is.
 ESHELMAN: You recognize the title of--(he and Breeze interrupt each other)
 BREEZE: You can't--Bill's quite right--you can't reliably unless on a one to
    one basis sense a person's spiritual development.
 ESHELMAN: I agree.
 BREEZE: There has to be a time element and there has to be some sort of
    objective report from the man's peers. I should think you'd have to be
 ESHELMAN: Old requirements call for one male and one female sponsor for a V°.
 WASSERMAN: Time's up.
 GRAEB: Gentlemen, thank you. It's now 10:55. I move that this meeting now
    adjourn to the same spot and reconvene at 11:05. Second? (several) Call
    for a vote? (passes unanimously)
 tape off
 GRAEB: Informally, what's the majority request?
 HEIDRICK: I'd like to see all but two, and if we can't make it in three
    ballots, raise it to all but three.
 MICHELLEE RIPPLE: Andrea isn't here.
 GRAEB: I know.
 WASSERMAN: I'd like to see it in six and then not tell anybody what the vote
    was. (everybody discusses it at once. Andrea returns.)
 HEIDRICK: We've just elected you "Caliph".
 LACEDONIA: Oh. that'd be a joke.
 GRAEB: All right, recorders are on.
 HEIDRICK: We haven't got a mode for voting yet.
 GRAEB: Recorders are on. The special meeting of members of the IX° Ordo
    Templi Orientis has rconvened at 11:05, still September twenty-first,
    nineteen eighty-five. We have had opening statements by the candidates.
    For formality purposes, we're going to do a straw vote and elect that
    person unanimously unelss there are any objections to following that
    procedure. Do I hear any objections? (silence) In which case, if you'd
    please write the name of your candidate on a slip of paper.
 HEIDRICK: Just put "Bill". (laughter)
 GRABE: Place it in Michelle's basket.
 LACEDONIA: Make sure there's eleven votes. No more, no less.
 GRAEB: Yeah, no more, no less. We will hand them to Lola D. Wolfe who can go
    in the bathroom and count them for us.
 WOLFE: That would be fine.
 HEIDRICK: How about just tipping them through and giving us ...
 WASSERMAN: Why don't two go in? She'll read them off and another person--
 GRAEB: Fine. (someone suggests him) Okay, I'll read them off and ... (much
    talking) Bill Breeze. Bill Heidrick. Bill Heidrick. Bill Breeze. Bill
    Breeze. Bill Breeze. Bill Heidrick. Bill Breeze. Bill Breeze. Bill Breeze.
    Bill Breeze. That's eight for Bill Breeze, three for Bill Heidrick on a
    straw vote. I would request at this moment that--
 HEIDRICK: That satisfied my criteria too. Produces the right man.
 GRAEB: I move that--what's his middle initial?
 HEIDRICK: William Keith Gary Breeze.
 GRAEB: That William Breeze, O.I., be, and hereby is, elected to the office of
    "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi Orientis.
 : I second that.
 GRAEB: Call for a vote.
 All: Aye.
 GRAEB: Let the record show that Mr. Breeze is unanimously elected as "Caliph"
    of the Ordo Templi Orientis.
 HEIDRICK: May I suggest that the next thing to do is get him down here and lay
    hands on him and make him a X°. (all agree)
 GRAEB: Let's make Eshelman come too. (Into phone) Ninety-three. Is Bill
    Breeze there? Jim GRAEB calling. Ninety-three. How are yo? Would you put
    Bill Breeze on? I need to talk to the "Caliph". That's a correct statement.
    Lord "Caliph", we request your presence.
 HEIDRICK: Would you invite Eshelman down too?
 GRAEB: Should we make Eshelman a IX° also?
 DUQUETTE: May I propose something? I leave this up to the rest of you because
    you know better than I do, but I had sort of made a little test in my mind
    and something worked out very nicely tonoght, and I was asked that perhaps
    we consider Tony as well.
 MICHAEL RIPPLE: I think we ought to give it to Bill Breeze and let him make
    the next IX°s.
 GRAEB: And bring our number all the way up to fourteen.
 SMITH: Oh my gosh.
 (Candidates enter)
 GRAEB: Hello Bill. How are you doing? Let's stand for the man!
 LACEDONIA: Oh, I don't know if my feet will hold me up but I'll try. If I
    fall down, somebody catch me!
 SECKLER: Bill, put her down!
 HEIDRICK: Not my failt, I couldn't find anything else that would fill up the
    (punch line inaudible)
 WASSERMAN: Did we want to call Jim Eshelman down?
 GRAEB: After the "Caliph" is present we'll make the decision.
 SMITH: I really didn't think it would happen on one vote, to tell you the
    truth. (all are relieved and are marvelling at expediency of voting)
 WASSERMAN: But don't mention his name. He wants to remain secret.
 GRAEB: All right, let's leave it up to him. But I did promise the multitudes
    in Pittsburgh that I would announce when he had a "Caliph".
 WASSERMAN: But this one has asked to remain secret.
 HEIDRICK: How can we do that? We have to report him to the Secretary of State
    of California.
 SECKLER: The OHO remains secret.
 WASSERMAN: He has asked for the secrecy as a part of the original condition
    for his even coming out here.
 HEIDRICK: Well I'm afraid we can't do it. (others agree) If that was a prior
    condition with him we didn't know it when we voted, so we can't be
    responsible for--
 (applause and oyez-ing as Breeze enters the room.)
 GRAEB: I kind of promised these folks... Our "Caliph"! We'd like to seat you in
    this chair.
 BREEZE: Thank you. You'll never, never regret it. (applause and laughter).
 GRAEB: Bill, do you want to take the chair or do you want me to continue on?
 BREEZE: Please continue. I think the Council of IX°s needs a President.
 GRAEB: Uh, all right.
 HEIDRICK: Jim, would you raise that issue?
 DUQUETTE: Let's knight him!
 GRAEB: Uh--okay, give me that sword.
 HEIDRICK: You know, I might have a role in this after all.
 GRAEB: By the Powers vested in me by the IX° Ordo Templi Orientis I hereby
    make you "Caliph" of the Ordo Templi Orientis.
 HEIDRICK: Phyllis has a paper from Grady, the previous "Caliph", giving her
    full powers of initiation. This will remove any question.
 SECKLER: By the Powers vested in me I knight you "Caliph" of the O.T.O.
 GRAEB: Your chair, my Lord.
 ESHELMAN: Did you send out a paper thirty days in advance? (laughter)
 SECKLER: This is for you, for the new "Caliph". Not from me, I just carried it.
 BREEZE: Thank you.
 GRAEB: Yeah, did you get your paperwork in? Where's the red book? Oh, we
    haven't told him about the dues.
 HEIDRICK: We haven't told ourselves about the dues. Five hundred and four
    dollars a year per head.
 GRAEB: Bill?
 GRAEB: Breeze.
 HEIDRICK: Oh, that Breeze. The boss Breeze. That's a zephyr, a gentle Breeze.
 (Breeze and Phyllis and Lola talk simultaneously)
 GRAEB: Bill? Could I ask you to step outside of the room for one second? I
    think it would be proper.
 BREEZE: Yeah.
 GRAEB: We would like to raise Tony Iannotti and Jim Eshelman to the IX°. We'd
    like you to do it as our new "Caliph".
 BREEZE: There's always a first time.
 HEIDRICK: Think of it as abstract sex.
 BREEZE: (thoughtfully) Abstract sex.
 HEIDRICK: Grady did it essentially by laying his hands on the back of the
    neck and pronouncing them a IX°.
 LACEDONIA: At least you didn't have to get it the way I got it.
 HEIDRICK: Tony's talking to Pittsburg. (everybody talks at once) Bill, would
    you favor us at some time the near future with the name so we can sign it to
    this worthy IX°'s paper in something more mystical than William Keith Gary
    Breeze? (he signs, to much cheering and applause) Have you thought of a
    name to take as "Caliph"?
 BREEZE: I didn't give it much thought. I'm not setting a terrific precedent,
    but about the best I could come up with is Hymenaeus Beta.
 (laughter, applause)
 HEIDRICK: I would take your time, Bill. There's plenty of time. (someone adds
    up the Qabalistic value of "Hymenaeus Beta")
 HYMENAEUS BETA: There's nothing in "Sephir Sephiroth" ...
 HEIDRICK: Drop an "A".
 WOLFE: If it interest you, you were unanimously elected at 11:11--
 HYMENAEUS BETA: Interesting.
 GRAEB: Eleven people voted you in at 11:11.
 ESHELMAN: My watch is correct and he answered the phone at 11:09.
 HEIDRICK: That's a problem with your watch.
 DUQUETTE: I'd like to raise the issue of how are we going to announce this
    information to the rest of the Order.
 HEIDRICK: Well, I've prepared envelopes for all the bodies that are not
    likely official bodies--Camps, Chapters and Lodges--that are likely to
    hear first-hand and a few that will. Some overlap. I'm sure that can go
    out in Monday's mail. And then, Magickal Link is a way of communicating
    whatever you think about it.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: As many of you know, I have peculiar ideas on the subject. If
    we don't agree on secrecy for the X° for now, I am thirty years old, it
    may be another thirty-five years before we have another shot at it.
 SMITH: We don't even have a real OHO yet.
 WASSERMAN: If I mention to you in the same document that you read to most of
    us earlier this evening, it says here that the--even if we're only talking
    about the X°--we all agree, as well as. the U.S. Courts all agree, that
    Bill Breeze is now the X° of the total U.S. It says that the National
    Grandmaster General, which is the X°, is not approachable as such, by any
    Person that has not received the VI°.
 HEIDRICK: You point to the first VI° and I'll listen to that.
 WASSERMAN: That's the point. We can't have secrecy.
 HEIDRICK: We haven't got it yet, and the State of California once a year
    requires the name and physical Address of the three principle officers of
    Ordo Templi Orientis. That's next due to be filed, I believe, in March.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: So between now and March we could loosely have a by-law
    change that--
 HEIDRICK: No. That's not anything in relationship to the articles and
 HYMENAEUS BETA: For example, when we incorporated in Quebec, the corporate
    officers were appointed by the "Caliph", and none of them were the "Caliph".
    Nor, in fact were any of them the "Caliph"'s representative. They were all
    people who agreed to be publically identified.
 HEIDRICK: Another problem, sneaking of time tables. You, are also now the
    Patriarch of the E.G.C., and their report period is next month.
 GRAEB: May I suggest to Bill that your function as OHO should de facto be
    kept secret, and that your mere fact as the "Caliph" be announced to
    everyone and that only we in this room, being above thw Vl°, know that you
    are also acting as an OHO.
 SECKLER: That's the way to do it.
 HEIDRICK: Of course, that won't keep quiet either, eventually.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: There's another practical fact, it's going to be impossible
    to keep people from knowing who is elected in the long run. As a matter of
    policy though, keeping to mind that member's names should remain out of
    print, the way I always work is as anonymously as possible. I've done a
    lot of work that way and I intend to continue to work that way.
 GRAEB: Nobody ever looks up those files. They get filed in dead letter,
    stashed away.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: We may wind up in Court and it'll be necessary for me to
    testify. That's a somewhat different matter, but in terms of the public
    conduct of the Order I would like to see secrecy restored.
 HEIDRICK: That will take a mystical name, preferably one with more vitality
    than Hymenaeus Beta.
 LACEDONIA: Take a mystical name and use the corporate mail drop which is in a
    post office box out of Berkeley until you establish your new mailing
 HEIDRICK: But you realize that no one in the Order is going to rest until
    they do know your name.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: Well, I'm sure a lot of people will make it difficult. I'm
    trying to change--Grady was a great man in that he rallied us all around
    him. He started a Minerval base, he started around here. He had to meet
    everybody, he had to get it and build it. I think we're at the point now
    where--it's a difficult decision. I do think that certain things we'll
    only have one shot at for a little while.
 DUQUETTE: So you think it's an important issue.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: It's an important issue.
 DUQUETTE: And that we should come to some resolution about that at this time
    within the time constraints that--
 HEIDRICK: One month.
 ESHELMAN: Do something fun first.
 GRAEB: May I present the Grand Secretary General, Tony lannotti. I would like
    to present him for initiation into the IX° Ordo Templi Orientis.
 HEIDRICK: Now all you have to do is make less than $50,400 a year.
 HYMENAEUS BETA: (Initiates Tony. Applause)
 All: Oyez, oyez, oyez!
 tape ends.
Transcript by Charon Dunn.

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