The 'Caliphate' Inquisition

      Ordo Templi Orientis Phenomenon
      The Inquisition

       DR: The loo is at the top of the stairs as you have now discovered, and
           the rest of the house is our private space.
       BF: Fine
       BF: Well, I mean, you're already aware, we're all aware of the context
           in which I'm here, it's been appointed by Clive, acting Grand
           Inquisitor Commander, in this capacity I'll be reporting to Clive,
           as lodge master of albion lodge and as the "Caliph"'s representative
           in this country.
       DR: You mean you are reporting to Clive as the "Caliph"'s representative?
       BF: Yes Clive's the "Caliph"'s representative.
       DR: Just to have that clear.
       BF: This is to give you an opportunity to have your say and to have
           that clearly communicated back to the powers that be..and also an
           opportunity for them to find out what's going on.
       DR: (to IFR) May I speak on our behalves for the sake of efficiency,
           so that we don't keep repeating ourselves.?
       IFR: You may speak for both of us.
       DR: Now before we come to various accusations, statements and
           what-have-you, it's true to say and I have no hesitation of saying
           it on the record, that Br Ben and ourselves have not always been
           the best of friends.
       BF: We've had conflicts.
       DR: We've had conflicts and what I want to do, already at the beginning
           of this meeting is to try to get some kind of comprehension in the
           minds of those others present as to exactly why we have a certain,
           let us say for the sake of politeness, a certain degree of
           scepticism towards the way in which things in this connection have
           been conducted so far and also to clarify certain points in that
           connection. When Br. Clive Harper first mooted this inquiry, as he
           himself can confirm, we welcomed it, that was our exact expression,
           we welcome it. Let's have it all up front. We even at that time,
           were prepared to accept that Br. Ben was the person to carry out
           this investigation; what we expected at that time was a degree of
           professionalism in that carrying out that would show the intention
           to give an objective picture, we haven't seen it! We are aware from
           Br. Harper and otherwise, that prior to his being commissioned to
           undertake this investigation, Br. Fernee had on his own initiative
           and in correspondence with the secretary general already mooted an
           opinion, which I assume, since he bothered to write it at all he
           had the hope would be acted upon that we i.e. Sister Irene and
           myself, should be excluded from the Order. Now whilst we would
           defend to the death, we would defend to the death Br. Ben's right
           to hold whatever damned opinions he likes it hardly inspires to
           confidence that when given the task of investigating our
           activities, he would approach this with any degree of objectivity
           soever. We had hoped that we would be wrong. We are aware that no
           person currently associated with us and to be supposed positively
           inclined towards us has been approached at all, to express their
           opinion concerning our activities, none soever, during the what is
           it, 8 to 10 weeks of this investigation?
       BF: I'm not sure off he top of my head.
       DR: Well it's somewhere between 8 and 10 weeks since this was mooted.
           As a second example to things which have undermined our confidence
           in this investigation, we cite Br. Fernee's approach to Mr. Louis
           Malloy, tattooist of Middleton. For the record Louis Malloy was Sr.
           Irene's original teacher in the arts of tattooing, the history
           between them was not fortunate. She having been systematically
           misled and lied to by Malloy with regard to his intents and finally
           pushed to the point of abandoning her apprenticeship with him and
           setting up her own business. Since which time Louis Malloy has made
           it a very large part of his activities by rumour, innuendo and
           possibly by more direct means to sabotage the trade of Sr Irene's
           business, Tattooed Lady Body Art. As an example, probably not
           included in the evidence taken by Br. Ben, the rumour spread
           through mutual customers: "Oh, she's probably off somewhere fucking
           cats and dogs and casting spells on people".
       IFR: The reason that I lost the apprenticeship was that I was a member
           of Ordo Templi Orientis.
       DR: Yes. The final, as Sr Irene has remarked, the final element in
           Malloy forcing her into breaking with him was his paranoia
           concerning her membership of Ordo Templi Orientis, the which had
           been brought to his notice by third parties, most likely the
           proprietor of a shop called Isis on the Corn Exchange. Now, to get
           to the point here, nobody is questioning Br Ben's right to approach
           Mr Malloy in the course of his investigations, but the manner in
           which that approach was carried out, has enabled Mr Malloy, to
           reinforce his already rich circulating nexus of rumour with the
           rumour that we and Sr Irene in particular are so perverse and so
           wicked, so disgusting, that even the black magickal order to which
           we belong is now in the process of throwing us out for being too
           extreme! There's no point in anybody ringing Malloy up and
           complaining about this, he'll lie his head off, he always does. The
           point here is that there are two interpretations on this
           unfortunate circumstance. The one is that when Br Ben approached Mr
           Malloy, (which we know about by the way through Mr Christopher
           Kelly, in the first instance), when Br Ben approached Mr Malloy, he
           must have expressed himself in a way that allowed Malloy to use
           that approach as he has, question is, was that maladroitness on Br
           Ben's part, in his handling of that situation, or was it ingenuous
           Another example, Br Ben's taking contact with my good friend Ralph
           Tegtmeier, on the basis of some information that Tegtmeier and
           ourselves had become unfriends and that we had been excluded from
           some organisational context in which Tegtmeier had some authority
           over us. All of which is arrant nonsense. From conversations with
           Tegtmeier subsequently, it seems very clear that in conversation
           with him Br Ben managed to convey the impression, which we will
           allow, could perhaps be erroneous, but the impression was none the
           less conveyed, that had it not been for the fact that there was
           reason to suppose that Tegtmeier would have something negative to
           say about us he would not have been contacted at all. Now we have
           given our promise to Br Clive that we will keep this meeting
           civilised and we have every intention to do so. However, from what
           I have said, and before we come to any accusations concerning
           ourselves, from what I have said it should be obvious why we have
           doubts as to the objectivity of the process to which we are being
           subjected. As I understood it from Br Clive Harper, Br Ben's role
           as Inquisitor should be to provide the Order, in this case
           represented by the person of Br Harper, with an objective basis to
           determine our activities, in so far as they concern the Order. What
           we feel has happened is that an inquiry has through omission or
           commision turned into a prosecution and I would like to make it
           very plain, here and now, that subject to evidence to the contrary,
           we are considering making a complaint to the said Br Harper
           concerning the manner in which Br Fernee has discharged his
           commision, which we experience as being tantamount to a Witchhunt.
           We are however open to be convinced to the contratry. End of
       BF: One thing is, I feel, clear. In the first instance, I'm not here to
           enter into argument. I'm here to act as an agent of the "Caliph" and
           the "Caliph"'s representative. I think it might be an idea that after
           I've asked some questions that you have the opportunity again if
           you wish, to say anything that can then be communicated back to the
           powers that be. So you have the full opportunity to have your say.
           I think now if we could maybe press on with some questions.
       DR: In other words, you are assuming that your acting under orders as
           it were, relieves you of any responsibility to convince us of your
           integrity in the discharge of your commision that would actually
           make us feel inclined to talk to you about these matters at all.
       BF: No, I take full responsibility for that which I do. It's a question
           of priorities. In the first instance I'm here to present questions
           on behalf of the powers that be. If we get through that we can then
           move to other matters.
       IFR: Have you not heard what Br David has said?
       BF: Very carefully.
       IFR: Have you comprehended it?
       BF: I have comprehended it and you will have the opportunity to say
           again and to comment on what else proceeds at this meeting, and
           that will be communicated directly back to Clive and the "Caliph".
       IFR: So convince...
       DR: And the "Caliph" via Clive or from you.
       BF: Both together I would say.
       IFR: So convince us about your objectivity.
       BF: Aahm, I'm not here to argue my position, I'm not here to argue full
           stop. I'm not here to justify what I'm doing, I don't need to do
       DR: Because you are backed by authority?
       BF: Yah. Because this is why I'm here to ask questions, to ask
           questions. Aahm, I mean.
       IFR: May I ask a question? Why did you not come and ask these questions
           10 weeks ago.
       BF: In the first instance I wanted to get an idea of the complaints
           that had been made. Now Clive actually suggested to me, passing on
           a suggestion from you, that it would be good if I talked to people
           who did support you. Now when Clive mentioned this it seemed to me,
           and the exact phrase I used, "Well it seems a bit half arsed to
           talk to other people, wouldn't it be better if I went and spoke
           directly to David and Irene?", it just seemed to be the obvious
           thing to do at this stage. Here I am.
       IFR: After 10 weeks
       BF: Well, yeah ahh, I have a business and things to do as well. So I
           mean, can we move on now?
       DR: Not quite. When we spoke on the phone recently, this is Br Ben and
           myself. You seemed surprised that we would require to have present
           other people, live people not just the tape to minute this meeting
           and in response to the presence of Sr Susanne and Br Adrian who are
           keeping record of this meeting, both written and taped, you have
           chosen to bring with you a second person Br Bruce here, in exactly
           what capacity has not been clarified yet, but I assume as a record
       BF: Yeah, working the machine.
       DR: You are aware I take it Br Ben, since you are of sufficient
           academic standing to take part in international sociological
           conferences and various, that to use a phrase from R. D. Laing "All
           data is captor". What we say to you is mediated by you to a third
           party, through your perceptions, and I repeat, it is not a delaying
           tactic on our part here, it is not irrelevant to establish whether
           or not there is an intent on your part to objectivity or whether in
           your mind, in your heart, we are already guilty as charged and that
           the collection of evidence has been slanted by that.
       BF: Well, I can say this, and I don't want to get distracted to
           argument, but I can say this, I'm not really here to make
           statements, it's partly the beauty of the tape that your words are
           communicated directly to the "Caliph" and Clive without me commenting
           upon them, not through me as a filter. I mean, I am open minded
           about one of the crucial allegations. When I first heard it I
           didn't believe it. And I communicated to you under my Bonds of
           Third Degree.
       DR: This is the accusation from Malloy that Sr Irene had had our 9 year
           old daughter entertaining customers in the studio by masturbating.
       BF: That's right, and I did't believe it, and I communicated that
           allegation to you under the Bonds of my Third Degree.
       IFR: Only after having been asked to do so.
       BF: No that's not true. That's untrue. I did that on my own before
           anyone had suggested to me. That's just not the case.
       DR: Well, we hear the words.
       BF: That is not the case. I told Clive that I'd heard it and when I
           told Clive that I'd heard it I also said I've already, and I had
           done, posted a letter to you. You know, I mean, I talked about it
           to Clive after I'd communicated a letter to you, that's just not
           true that anyone suggested to me that I aught to do this. My first
           response was " I do not believe this", and I acted accordingly. So
           you know that was my first response when I heard this.
       DR: Well we reserve what we have said concerning the integrity of this
           investigation. Let that be recorded.
       BF: That's recorded and I'm very anxious that at the end of when I've
           asked some questions, that you again have the opportunity to say
           anything that you want to be heard in this context. Very anxious
           about that. Right, can I ask some questions?
       DR: Ask away.
       BF: I mean, one thing I wanted to start is to get an idea about how the
           recruitment into what you call the AA, how this works in the
           context of OTO and EGC.
       DR: First part of an answer there, we see if it remains the whole of
           the answer is : What authority have you or the authorities from
           whom your authority as acting inquisitor derives, to ask that
           question at all?
       BF: I think you'll find that where OTO people are being recruited into
           another magickal order in an OTO context, I think you'll find that
           the powers that be do consider that their business. And I think
           also if the activities of that other magickal order should bring
           the OTO into disrepute they will especially consider it a matter of
           their interest. I would also point out that these rights are
           embodied in the degrees, in the undertakings of the degrees,
           especially in the undertakings of 5th degree. The written
           undertaking before you take the degree recognises that the OTO has
           an interest in this.
       AB: May I make a comment?
       DR: If you so wish, from our side...
       AB: It's written in Crowley's own writing that any person soever who
           takes the Oath of a Master of the Temple has the full right to
           claim that Grade. It is also written that any person possesing that
           grade has the right to establish whatever school of teaching they
           so wish to communicate those particular mysteries after their own
           will and fashion. It therefore follows that anybody who has
           undergone those two simple and straightforward steps has every
           right consecrated as it is by the writings of the Prophet to
           establish whatever school of AA they desire, and that the OTO can
           therefore firstly have no jurisdiction in those areas, and secondly
           can hardly recognise or unrecognise as unlawful a constituted
           structure of AA the formula for the formation of which is outlined
           clearly enough in One Star in Sight in Magick In Theory and
           Practice. That would be an absolute contradiction in terms.
       DR: Let it be noted for the record that that is Br Adrian's comment and
           not ours.
       AB: Yes
       DR: May I enquire, what you are referring to Br Ben is the obligation
           of a 5th not to enter into any kind of Magickal interaction, for
           the sake of shortness, with any person or organisations not
           approved by the Grand Master, is that what you are referring to?
       BF: Yes
       DR: I see. Right. Let it be said, for the record, that my Work, me here
           being Br David, as far as it concerns AA Work, and following
           Brother Ben's usage. We'll use that term for a designation.
       BF: We all know what we mean here.
       DR: We all know what we mean here. Derives, although without paper to
           prove it, from certain matters which passed between myself and the
           late Grady McMurtry. Not in his Hymaneus Alpha "Caliph" hat, but
           during the time that I spent together with Grady during his first
           European tour, well his only European tour in fact. Let it be
           stated for the record, that I had never claimed, nor as one
           initially taught by me, has Sr Irene ever claimed any formal
           authority, in an AA context. In that context I teach to the best of
           my ability and according to the scope of my Attainment in
           fulfillment of a promise given by me to the late Grady McMurtry,
           under circumstances personal to himself and myself which I do not
           consider it proper to discuss in this context. No claim of
           authority in the formal sense to my knowledge has ever been in
           respect of her own work in teaching by the Sister Irene.
           The degree of authority in inverted commas, or not, the formal
           possession of a transmission or not, has always been quite clearly
           and explicitly stated by either or both of us at the beginnings of
           any persons pupilage in the context of what we call our AA Work.
           Now we are going to get into the realm of unprovables. My discharge of
           my promise to Grady McMurtry, I add that that promise was not given
           to him in that name but I do not feel it correct to go into deeper
           circumstances there, for the moment Grady McMurtry is a sufficient
           identifying label. Yes?
       BF: Fine
       DR: My discharge of that promise and obligaton has been built around my
           own personal Work which has centred upon, the operations of
           Enochian Magick and in particular, the working of the Thirty Aires.
           Whether what I am about to say is accepted and acceptable or not,
           will to an extent rest on the acceptance or not of the objectivity
           of the Spirits, Powers, whatever label one wants to give them,
           encountered and worked with jointly or seperatly, usually
           seperatly, by myself and/or Sr Irene and/or any person in pupilage
           with us. So to come now to the specific answer to the specific
           question posed by Br Ben, throughout all the time since I gave the
           promise I gave to the late Br McMurtry, and in particular since the
           working of the 30 Aires and its association with my taking the 8=3
           Oath of AA in October 1985, no person has been approached either
           within OTO and/or EGC or without those organisations, for we have,
           both of us, pupils external to those organisations, no person has
           been approached without there having been clear and prior
           indication from the Spirits, who we normally refer to as The Powers
           but this could be confusing in this present conversation.
       BF: Yeah, yeah, because I've used it in another way.
       DR: Without prior indication from the Spirits. Indeed there have been
           persons who for one reason or another I personally would love to
           have had the opportunity of teaching, and I have been specifically
           denied that by the said Spirits, in as much as that person's Path
           leads them in a direction differing from and incompatible with my
           own in that context. In other words, whom we have approached, I
           have approached, Sr Irene has approached, or indeed some of our
           more senior personal pupils have approached in these matters, has
           not been, we contend, an arbitrary process. But the acceptence of
           the contention that it is not an arbitrary process, really depends
           on whether there is an acceptence of the objective status of what I
           call the Powers and am here designating the Spirits to avoid
           confusion. If one takes the philospohically fully defensible
           position that these entities are no more than some form of
           extention of my or Sr Irene's personal psyche, then clearly one
           will interpret the choice to offer a particular person NN a
           personal pupilage as being something that in the final instance is
           our choice, therefore subject to our whims our desires, likes,
           dislikes. If one accepts the alternative and equally legitimate
           philosophical position, that the Spirits are objective, and
           including one's own Holy Guardian Angel, although the HGA has a
           different quality from any other class of Spirit. If one accepts
           the objectivity of these, and I would suggest, at least as far as
           the mature Crowley is concerned, his position was to accept their
           objectivity, I refer here to the Crowley of 'Magick without Tears'
           rather than the Crowley of the preface to the Goetia who seemed to
           be some kind of central state materialist. If one accepts the
           objectivity of the Spirits, then a different colouration, if you
           like, is put on our recruiting or not of any given individual into
           this work.
           If it not only us that is on trial here, it is a whole approach to
           quite fundamental questions underlying the practice of Magick, and
           I will go a little bit further here if I may.
       BF: Go ahead
       DR: This question pertains not only to recruitment but to the exact
           manner in which I or Sr Irene, although we do not use those names
           in that context but for the sake of clarity, blah blah, the manner
           in which either of us at any given time teaches a particular person
           beyond the fundamental core which is the syllabus. The published
           syllabus, and no pupil of ours gets away without having 'do the
           syllabus work' drummed into their ears until they're sick of it.
           The manner of teaching, the manner of interaction, what happens
           between us and them at any given time, the changes in what happens
           between us and them at any given time is a matter of quite a
           complex assessment between our evaluations, and again information
           deriving from sources whose objectivity is open to ontological
           question. This has been the case for as long as I've been involved
           in this, which is getting on now for slightly in excess of a decade
           in terms of interacting with pupils and slightly in excess of two
           decades in terms of my own personal work which was in process
           before I ever met McMurtry. And what is germaine here is that those
           people who have entered into pupilage, who have loyally and
           diligently stuck to the syllabus, who have done the work, who have
           interacted with us in any way soever in the basis of the
           information given by us or obtained by them from these subtle
           forces. Those who stayed with it are not the ones who raised the
           complaints. Those who stayed with it and who are also within the
           OTO are, and for obvious reasons I am not willing to name names at
           this stage, because their private work is their private
           prerogative, are however amongst those who most loyally and
           dillegently have carried out and do carry out the work of OTO and
           of EGC within the context of the area where we have any kind of
           contact with people at all. Those who in spite of our admonitions
           have thought themselves better than the need to do the syllabus
           work, those, who in spite of our admonitions have chosen to
           experiment in a variety of ways with techniques not deriving from
           any Thelemic source, and in particular, those who have gone
           dabbling with various forms of Chaos magic, where there's as little
           grasp of Chaos magick as they seem to have of Thelema, they are the
           ones who in spite of every effort of ours have failed to continue
           in the Work, and without exception, when somebody drops out of the
           Work, they look for some means of justifying themselves to
           themselves for doing it. Who are you gonna blame? And it is
           distressing to see the total lack of imagination...
       IFR: YES
       DR: with which that blame is constructed..
       IFR: It becomes boring.
       DR: The same goddamned silly stories that have been circulating about
           one or other person since Betty May first wrote silly stories about
           Crowley in the yellow press. They turn up again and again. The same
           willful misrepresentation of various interactions of one sort or
           another. We are aware, we are painfully aware, and have been for as
           long as we have been involved in this, of the risk that we take in
           taking on anybody, knowing that there's a more than even chance,
           given the demands of the Work, that they will reach a stage where
           they are not willing to take responsibility for their own action,
           where they are not willing to take on the burden of paying the
           price of the lunch. whatever that may be. and it varies from person
           to person; and knowing full well that when that happens, we are
           going to get blamed, we are going to get slagged off in public, we
           are going to be misrepresented, and we still go on and do it.
       BF: Right
       DR: And we still go on and do it for the simple reason that we feel
           that we are under an obligation so to do. But I can give you my
           deepest and most sincere assurance, which I am sure the sister will
           echo, that we would much rather not have anything to do with it at
           all, because it is a total pain in the arse. End of second
       BF: So when AA activities that are aside from the published syllabus of
           the AA take place, that is a result of information from
           disincarnate entities...
       DR: If you want to put it like that...
       BF: Spirits...
       DR: Those of our pupils, there's an additional point here, who in dint
           of natural ability and or hard work and attainment have their own
           direct channel to such information are always required not to rely
           on us as a source of information, they are always required to
           either get independant confirmation through their own workings, or
           in some cases to get the information themselves without our
           invovlement at all. It has happened, and does happen. What is
           interesting here is, and again I think you can confirm this, as
           long as people are actually doing the work, as long as they are
           doing the syllabus work as well as anything else, as long as they
           are actually sticking to what they've sworn themselves to in the
           first place, and I'll come back to that in a second, there never
           seems to be any confusion in their minds between the various
           contexts. It's only after they've fallen off one or other aspect of
           the work that they begin to mix the contexts together into the
           Magickal equivalent of mushy peas, in their own minds and in their
           own self justification. We've seen it time and time again. It's
           always equally distressing but it seems to be a general case.
       IFR: We always stress very very clearly if they shall make the
           confusion, make the distinction between the contexts...
       [DR: (to SW) Light out!
       DR: We actually have a tape, we can actually copy, see what the quality
           of that is like, copy straight across.]
       DR: This really what I'm saying now is a background to our answers to
           any question.
       IFR: As long as they are our is always expressed very very
           clearly again and again the distinction between the contexts. This,
           this, this has nothing to do with the OTO, it is not in an OTO
           context. It is as Br. David said first after this confusion seems
           to occur in their own minds.
       DR: I would contend actually that more have succeeded than have failed.
           That's again reliant on evidence that I'm not prepared to give
           without the specific permission of the people concerned. For
           obvious reasons. I will point out that during the stay in Wales
           when I took my 5th degree, I did actually discuss my AA work with
           the "Caliph" at some length, the result of which was him at that
           point communicating to me the Equinoctial Word which he had
           received from his then teacher, now deceased. The teacher, not the
           "Caliph"! So, I mean there are more questions at stake here than our
           behaviour. There are two things I would like to add here; one is
           the manner in which anybody starts this particular aspect of the
           work under our auspices, is having had it rammed down their throats
           that there's no formal authority here that you can get bits of
           paper off, they are asked to make an act of self-dedication so that
           the contract if you like is not between them and us, it's between
           them and themselves, and them and the Powers of the Universe if you
           like, which means, in a sense, that their work is completely
           independant of us, or can become so at any time soever. The other
           thing here, which colours a little bit our reactions when things
           like this investigation occur, is the peculiar way in which in
           particular my work in the AA context has been viewed in certain
           quarters and the lengths people will go to. One has heard now by
           various and dubious routes, it may be a Chinese whisper, it may
           not, that the real reason that my OTO Charters were pulled was
           because Bill Heidrick was convinced that I having taken the 8=3
           Oath of AA, had failed, and that my failure was responsible pretty
           much from all the problems the Order was facing in Europe. A
           misunderstanding concerning the retaining of certain monies in
           Manchester between myself and Br. Clive was then totally,
           illegitimately blown up and misrepresented as "financial
           irregularity" on my part, and used as a vicarious excuse for
           pulling Charters, by the way another reason for us not having too
           much trust towards yourself Br. Ben was the way that the pulling of
           my Charter was used by you in a meeting in Rochdale.
       BF: Say your piece.
       DR: It was referred to in a meeting where quite honestly it was not
           relevant by you in a "Oh dear, I've let cat cat out of the bag!"
       BF: Well, I'm not here to argue.
       DR: Yeah, but again it's not the sort of thing that makes people trust
           people. Now, I would make one last point concerning our AA work.
           There are people who we teach towards whom I have absolutely no
           personal liking whatsoever.
       BF: Fine.
       DR: But that isn't the point. Do you see what I mean here, we're on to
           somewhat difficult territory here because there are underlying
           ontological questions here...
       BF: Yes, I do, I do, and ...they're important.
       DR: They are.
       BF: They're important.
       DR: They are indeed because the whole question of the legitimacy of
           what we do, in the final instance hinges on how you interpret the
           statement I've just made really.
       BF: Absolutely. I'm interested as well... I feel this is partly where
           the problems be, is in some of the non-published AA activities,
           non-published syllabus AA activities, so I mean, have there been
           instances where the Spirits, being the word we are using here, have
           given information that people should engage in a series of Magickal
           Operations during which one or some of the participants have felt
           uncomfortable with those Magickal Operations? Or the act involved
           in those magickal operations, has this been the situation?
       DR: I've never felt comfortable with a Magickal Operation in my life.
       IFR: Neither have I.
       DR: I'd rather not do anything than most of the things I have done.
       IFR: But how can one teach if the only concern in one's own learning
           and in teaching is one's comfort?
       BF: Yes, but let's not get hung up about the word comfort. What I'm
           thinking really of is where...
       DR: Has anybody ever been forced into any sort of sexual activity is
           what you're thinking of.
       BF: That's, that's the area...
       DR: So why don't you say that.
       BF: Yes, that's the area, where sex acts have been part of the Magickal
           Operations, you know, have there been situations where people have
           been informed that the Spirits have said a series of sexual acts in
           a Magickal context should take place?
       DR: Such situation occur, yes, and I' ve already covered that point in
           one sense by saying that nothing is ever done without there being
           some kind of confirmatory work. Even if it's "Do a divination
           yourself". There has never been any question of force, never, ever.
       IFR: And always "If this is your Will so to do, you can say yes or you
           can say no."
       DR: And people have said no, and that has always been respected.
       IFR: Always respected.
       BF: Right.
       DR: Let me just go on here. I suggest we continue until half past and
           then we take a break for a further coffee.
       BF: OK, yeah.
       DR: My brain requires caffeine, I don't know about yours.
       BF: Ah, yeah, it was an early start.
       DR: Right, OK. What I would add there is that there have also been
           occasions more I would hasten in the connection with Sr Irene than
           in connection with myself because she's a damn sight prettier than
           I am, that was a facetious comment but not only, there have also
           been occasions when the clear sexual desire towards her on the part
           of one or other pupil male or female, has deliberatly been
           explicitly pointed out and then thwarted.
       BF: Right, right, yeah.
       DR: It's not unknown under such circumstances, for an ex-pupil whose
           desire to get into her knickers has never been allowed, to have
           created a whole mythology about all the things they are supposed to
           have done together as well. Particularly those who would have loved
           to have taken part in some of the work that she engages in on the
           fetish and leather scene, associated with her business.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: and have never had the opportunity...
       BF: Right, yeah.
       DR: Now, there's also...
       IFR: I think it's important to state that when a pupil is first engaged
           in pupilage, it is a contract, you can't...."Let everything be done
           well, and with business way". You can not teach without a contract.
           It is a contract between teacher and pupil which the pupil can
           accept or not accept. If you say "Yes, I want to be taught", then
           you have accepted the contract.
       DR: Let me give an example without naming names here. The hindrance to
           development for most people is the ability by one means or another
           to overcome their own, what shall we call them, "hang-ups".
       BF: Yeah.
       DR: Sometimes, in order, as it were for the central syllabus based work
           to progress, some kind of a hang-up has to be exploded.
       BF: Right.
       DR: Now. There's another point here, as well, which distinguishes
           something like the one- to-one kind of work that an AA thing has
           from what are essentially collective Orders like the OTO, and that
           is that in something like the OTO the very structure of the Order
           does not allow for what the psycho-analysts call the "problem of
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: But when you're teaching on a one-to-one basis in any context, and
           particularly in a Magickal context, then the problem of
           transference is sitting there.
       BF: This being feelings by the pupil for the teacher that are
       DR: Yeah, and the transfer of feelings towards themselves onto the
       BF: Right.
       DR: As teacher, one is just as much demon as angel. And at varying
           stages of any kind of pupil/teacher interaction. How far I am the
           Great White Whatsit, or how far I am the Demon David, is gonna vary
           quite dramatically, from time to time. Those who come through the
           Demon David phase tend to feel terribly embarrassed about it
           afterwards, but I mean.. And those who don't, add to the mythology.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: We have also, or at least I have also experienced on occasions,
           though not for many years, problems with the misrepresentation of
           my Work here, by people who for one reason or another have become
           aware of it, who desperately wanted to be a part of it, and who've
           been told "Sorry, I can't take you on".
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: A lot of the problems that I had with Gerald [Suster], to a certain
           extent were that he having decided that I was the most accomplished
           Magician he'd met after Regardie, this was after Regardie died, he
           was sort of in one sense or another angling for my approval and
           recognition. he didn't get it, and turned singularly nasty, and
           this is germaine here because one of the effects of that was Gerald
           having by diverse and peculiar means of his own, certainly not
           deriving from any information by me, having decided that I'd taken
           the 8=3 Oath, presenting a very warped representation of what that
           was in all sorts of contexts and sundries. It was an attempt by me
           to limit the damage being done by that action of his that resulted
           in my re-affirming that oath, in a meeting, which having been an
           OTO meeting, had none the less been closed at that point of time,
           but which then got misrepresented back again as me taking the 8=3
           Oath in an OTO meeting, and then feeding it to Heidrick's paranoia.
           So there's a whole sort of domino sequence here that goes back a
           good few years.
       BF: Right, Right.
       DR: But, Gerald's spreading weird versions of what it was I was
           supposed to have sworn myself to, in a variety of more or less
           public contexts, including "The Society" in London, and a few other
           bits and pieces, and this was quite simply down to the fact that he
           wanted to be taught. He wanted a new guru after Regardie died, and
           I wouldn't play. Because it had been made very explicit to me by
           the Sources that I work with and that I respect that I was not to
           take him on. And I told him that, but he wouldn't accept that. Only
           his Spirits were objective. Everybody else's were to do with their
           psychology and therefore because I'm a nasty warped person I
           wouldn't play with him. And I mean we've had other examples of this
           as well. And again, anybody who's a "wanna-be" and has been
           rejected seems to contribute to the mythology as well.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: one way or another.
       BF: Shall we stop for a coffee break now.
       DR: Yes.
       BF: And then come back to a point which has been made.
       IFR: Yep.
       DR: OK.
       BF: Yeah, cause I want to return, cause I think this is an area of
       DR: Ah hah.
       BF: Where we have Spirits communicating information for non-standard
           syllabus, non- published syllabus AA activities. Umm, now you
           mentioned um the contract that people enter into when they become
           pupils. If perhaps you want to talk a bit more about the nature of
           that contract.
       IFR: It is, goes like, that I offer the pupilage, take it or leave it,
           yes or no, if it's yes, it's a contract.
       BF: It's a contract.
       IFR: As in any teaching institution, university or whatever, it is a
           teaching contract between the teaching institution and the pupil,
           even some college and universities...
       DR: Not a written contract.
       IFR: You have no written contract. There's no written contract here,
           it's not a written contract.
       BF: Not a written one, it's. it's. it's.
       IFR: No.
       BF: It's a verbal contract. So what does the pupil contract to do,
       IFR: To be taught.
       BF: To be taught.
       IFR: Yes.
       BF: What does the pupil undertake to do in relation to Magickal
       DR: Nothing specific.
       IFR: Nothing specific.
       BF: But that is understood to be part of the contract?
       DR: Whatever is necessary to learn what needs to be learned.
       IFR: Yes.
       BF: And an element of this may be loosing inhibitions?
       DR: The element of it may be all sorts of things, whatever they're most
           frightened of, in a way, yeah?
       BF: Well.
       DR: I was going to give an example of one former pupil of mine,
           unbeknownst to me because one is reliant on people providing
           information, we don't go putting them on the rack to get it, unless
           that might be what they might enjoy, and then it's a different
           context and they would have to pay for it. That's a JOKE! For
           anybody who may not realise it. Right, one former pupil of mine had
           unbeknownst to me great trouble with the fact that he in fact is a
           transvestite, and has never ever come to terms with that. This
           leading to a number of problems between himself and his lady
           friend, the which problems were then exploited by other persons,
           not us, leading to various troubles. If he'd told me I could have
           helped him to deal with it. He didn't, as it was, it all ended in
           tears one way and another, in spite of the fact that the one day
           for months when we didn't actually give up our time, for one or
           another person's neccessities, which is also a point here.
       IFR: We had said "This one day ...
       DR: New Year's Eve.
       IFR: ... is for us ..."
       DR: We ended up mediating between him and his ladyfriend after he'd
           spent half an hour on the phone to me in a phone box in tears. All
           of which subsequently got edited out of the story. Whether or not
           I'll put a name on that particular story depends on whether or not
           he's listed among the complainants.
       BF: Don't think so.
       DR: You don't know. It's also the case that the gentleman in question
           had used vast amounts of notes kept by himself from discussions
           he'd had with me, notes more or less verbatim of my words, to
           create first his BA thesis, and then his MA thesis.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Which although, I in the one case and we in the other case got a
           small acknowledgment at the beginning, the degree of assistance
           has never ever been revealed. But it just ruddy well might be if
           I'm pushed far enough. But it has to do with people's integrity. I
           don't mind being slagged off Ben but I do object to being ripped
           off. Slagged off I can eventually cope with, ripped off, I will
           wait years. Old Klingon Proverb "Revenge is a dish best eaten
           cold". So.
       BF: So, eh the contract, uhm.
       DR: The contract is one of mutual trust.
       IFR: Yeah, and confidentiality.
       DR: And confidentiality within the teaching relationship, the which
           confidentiality is always kept as long as people are on track and
           doing the syllabus work and thereby having the basis to comprehend
           what is otherwise happening to them, and which goes straight out
           the window as soon as they don't do that. I mean, the key here to
           who stays and who goes is not whether they indulge in bizarre
           sexual acts with us, either or both, or donkeys or whatever, is not
           whether we set them vicious and horrible tasks to do, they key
           element in whether or not they stay in this or not, has been, is,
           always will be, whether they listen to what we say to them and
           buckle down and do the syllabus work. Because if they do the
           syllabus work: 1) they inevitably acquire the ability to get their
           own information, by one means and another, be it scrying,
           divinations or whatever, and eventually by contact with their HGA;
           2) they acquire a certain fundamental personal stability, which
           they don't otherwise acquire, the which feeds back into their OTO
           by in a certain sense counteracting the destabilising effect of
           those chakra-based intiations; 3) they in any case broaden their
           education and are therefore in a better position to judge the exact
           nature... the gentleman I mentioned who liked to dress up in his
           girlfriends frocks, wrote his thesis on Tantra. When confronted by
           us with a full Tantric meal, he nearly freaked. When asked to go
           and sit in a graveyard for 10 minutes, he couldn't do it, due to
           residual superstitions from his own cultural background.
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: The discovery that the person who'd been his teacher for nearly 18
           months, and his teacher's partner, might just be the exact kind of
           people he'd spent the last two years writing about shook him to his
           little roots. These kind of things only work if people take the
           unwritten contract seriously, the contract is to do the Work, the
           Work here defined as being the syllabus and the contract being to
           learn through those experiences which are constructed for them to
       BF: Right, right. And part of that construction...
       DR: Could be anything.
       BF: Could be anything.
       DR: It could be a night of wild pleasure with one of us, or it could be
           spending 10 hours lying on a bed of nettles in freezing cold and
           rain on the Yorkshire Moors. It depends what that person
           particularly needs to overcome in order to be able to draw out...
       BF: Liberate themselves.
       DR: Yeah but also to be able to, there's a sort of ...cycle here
           between the learning in the syllabus and having something to apply
           that learning to, so they can interpret and then feed that
           interpretation back to enrich the learning.
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: We teach through experiential method. Because unfortunatley that
           happens to be the only way that we can teach.
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: Other people teach differently. And it's horses for courses. I
           mentioned earlier the fact that I have had people I would have
           loved to have taught and I've been told "Hands Off!"
       BF: Right, so you've done that.
       DR: And I've done that. But the point was that particular person did
           eventually find a person they needed to teach what they needed to
           learn, and it couldn't have been me for the simple reason, that
           what they needed to learn required a totally different method of
           teaching than the experiential one.
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: You know, my method of teaching, her method of teaching, we're
           essentially Situationalists if you like.
       BF: Right. Right. So.
       DR: I mean, and you have to make a judgement.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: In what you're doing. in the situation you create...
       IFR: And always weigh the risks.
       DR: To take an example from another context.
       BF: OK.
       DR: Right. The late lamented side pocket of the OTO, the Knights of
           Baphomet, in the days when I was still making Knights, which I
           don't do any longer obviously, since that thing has gone into
           obeyance, yeah?
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: You will remember the clobbering I gave you when I gave you your
           first buffet, I nearly dislocated your jaw, I seem to remember.
           Other people, I would give a very light tap, you make a judgement
           as to what is the best thing to do in the circumstances, now when
           you make a judgement, sorry am I going too fast...
       SW: Ehh, slightly. AB: Just a tad.
       DR: When you make a judgement you always accept as part of the contract
           between you and the universe that your judgement might be wrong.
       BF: Right.
       DR: And, even if one had Understanding, even if one had Wisdom, even if
           one were beyond even that and I certainly wouldn't claim any of
           these things, in any sense which is complete. You here now in the
           piece of meat you live in, are still gonna have to take that risk
           every time you make a judgement.
       BF: Right. Yes. Yeah.
       DR: Yeah?
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: I have criticised, on record, your way of conducting this
           investigation up to now, but that has been based on your decisions
           as to how to do something. I happen to think that you've done it in
           a way which is not particularly useful, but you're the one who is
           gonna have to stand for that. You have made decisions and you will
           have to take the consequences of them being right or wrong.
       BF: Yeah. Yeah.
       DR: Sometimes you end up with a medal, sometimes you end up with egg on
           your face, sometimes you end up with a damn sight worse. It's the
           same here.
       BF: Umm. Hmm. Umm. Hmm. Right. Right.
       DR: Now, let's not get hung up in a particular act or sequence of acts,
           it's the same damn thing, regardless of what is done, you make a
           judgement on the basis of the fullest and best information,
           particularly the fullest information you can get. I do it, you do
           it, everybody does it, every day.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: We, and I think I can speak for both of us here, have no regret
           soever, about anything which we have done.
       IFR: Confirmed.
       DR: In this context that we are discussing. Totally unrepentant, sorry.
       BF: Fine.
       DR: We do have regrets about the way, when people in one way or another
           have fallen off the lorry, they have then chosen to act
           subsequently, but that's the risk we take. It's the risk we have
           always taken in doing this at all, and it's the main reason why
           quite frankly I would rather not do it. I don't feel I have the
           choice not to do it.
       BF: Right.
       DR: And, for my own part here, and you can speak for yourself here, one
           of the reasons, saving your grace, that I get so furious when this
           whole situation occurs.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Is I do not want to see the situation arise where I have to make
           the choice between two sorts of authority, both of whom I respect
           and both of whom I have dedicated considerable periods of my life
           to the service of. But in the final analysis, if you take an
           objectivist view of the subtle members of the congregation of the
           universe, if I have to make a choice between Bill Breeze's
           authority, and the authority of my Holy Guardian Angel and the
           Powers, here designated the Spirits, a choice I simply do not want
           to have to make.
       BF: Right.
       DR: I would have to make that choice on the basis of who I personally
           feel my prime loyalty must be to, now I'm not saying which way that
           would jump, but I'm gonna lose anyway, if the choice is forced on
           me in one sense or another, we are both now in a no- win situation.
       BF: Well.
       DR: If the choice is forced.
       BF: Umm. Hmm. Well, that's not for me...
       DR: That's not for you, but I'm saying, here, now on record, if the
           choice is forced, in one sense or another we will lose, each of us
           and both of us a very considerable part of what we have dedicated
           our lives to. Because we do not make any seperation between any
           part of our lives and our Magickal Work.
       BF: Right. Absolutely.
       DR: Yeah? Irene's business is a Magickal Operation, and suffers for it.
           Up until now, my involvement in Magick has cost me a marriage, the
           love of two children, it has cost me a job, it has cost me a
           business. Now, I'm sort of putting up the "Poor me I'm a great
           martyr" thing, but what I'm saying is, I have a little tattoo on my
           arm of a Vulture... He is above a scroll on which is inscribed the
           word " Tanstaafl ". Those of you who have read Heinlein's "The moon
           is a harsh mistress", will recognise that as the motto in Lunar
           Colony. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch". well I've paid
           my dues, right the way down the line and I find it very, very very
           hurtful that the will to take the risk is not being respected, not
           being respected by those who don't dare any longer or never did and
           who therefore feel themselves entitled in one way or another to
           denigrate that which they once most desired to be a part of by
           willful, gross malicious misrepresentation. End of statement.
       DR: Do you want to add or do you want to confirm what I've just said,
           you're your own voice, not mine.
       IFR: I agree with every word you have said.
       BF: Because I do want to kind of clarify the process which is
           operating. We are touching upon the sensitive stuff now, we are
           starting to enter into this. Correct me if I'm wrong, please
           correct me if I'm wrong. You're operating the AA syllabus, as
           published, with the adjunct of creating experiences that work out,
           reinforce, and help in that. Now those operations that are the
           adjunct, the complement of the published syllabus, now the
           information for what these are comes from the Spirits and come from
           your judgement of what the person requires, what would be the
       DR: On the basis of the total information available at that time. Can I
           just add something. I'm trying to formulate this so that it is in
           some sense comprehensible. The syllabus as it is published, and
           this really pertains more to the sister's work than it does to
           mine, so perhaps she should say it rather than me but I'll
           formulate it and if she doesn't like what I'm saying, she can
           disagree or add. The syllabus as it is published is not a Class A
           document, it is the product of a late Victorian male mind. There
           are whole areas of Magickal experience which are excluded from the
           syllabus because it is the product of a late Victorian male mind,
           however Illuminated. It has its own historicity. Up to a certain
           point, clearly, the same things are central, in the tuition of both
           a male or a female pupil, I hasten to add, I do not have any female
           pupils, the only female pupil I've actually ever had is sitting
           beside me here and I share most of my life with her, yeah? Namely
           Irene. There are whole areas pertaining to female Magick, women's
           mysteries or whatever, which, and particularly the dark side of
           that, in its, not in the sanitised, the sort of fashion for Dark
           Goddessy things at the moment...
       BF: I know, yeah.
       DR: We'll ignore that, I'm talking about.
       BF: The sort of books I used to sell in the old shop, I know.
       DR: I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the real thing. And
           to an extent then, I as a male teaching males primarily, have the
           luxury of having it all set up for me. To properly teach a female
           as female as an adjunct to the necessary common ground if you like,
           which is what the syllabus is, she has to go off into territories
           that neither you or I or any sensible male would dare to enter and
           take her pupil with her. Now, that in itself means that to a
           certain extent they operate in much scarier territory than any man
           would ever dare go into. And therefore with a greater risk of
           failure through loss of nerve in a way. Also, because so much of
           that tradition is neither verbal nor verbally communicable. It
           operates through totally other means. Through dance, through,
           through whatever, but not the verbal conceptual intellectual
           claptrap that we men tend to indulge in.
       AB: May I make a quotation at this stage if I may be permitted to do
       DR: Yeah.
       AB: A propos the published syllabus and sorry to quote Crowley again as
           if he was scripture but the point is germaine. He makes the point
           that it is spiritual experience alone which counts, the rest is but
           method. The notion being that you cannot publish a recipe of
           Magickal Practice which is going to work the same way for
           everybody. It is a skeleton, it is not intended to be taken as
           gospel. But merely as groundwork to begin with and not the be-all
           and end-all of the whole thing, and at some point if that system
           were to be practiced you would have to depart from what is
           published, that is only the bare framework for what can be common
           to all.
       DR: It is also the stabilising factor. Now again, both male and female,
           there are certain stages in that work which are extremely
           frightening. Particularly, the, what I would call the ante-chambers
           to those stages, the last step. As can be seen from various
           published writings, as can be seen from Liber Samekh, below
           Tiphareth in the inner, the HGA is the Opponent.
       BF: Right. Yes.
       DR: Jacob met Satan and wrestled with him 'til dawn, whereupon he found
           him to be the Angel of the Presence of the Lord. Yeah?
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Now one of the places... I'm not saying this is the case for all
           those who having departed from that aspect of the work are
           concerned to bring us down... but one of the saddest cases of all
           that I have seen, there was a particular ex-pupil of mine, not the
           same one I referred to before, again I will mention the name if and
           only if he is listed by name amongst our accusers, who from his own
           record was within what I would call spitting distance of the first
           true extensive contact with that being who is his Holy Guardian
           Angel, whatever that might be, I again hold an objectivist
           viewpoint of that on the basis of my own experience. Other people
           would prefer to treat as if it was esoteric psychology. Whatever it
           is, he was on the verge of really meeting it, in its true form for
           the first time, and he bottled. He was not prepared to take the
           responsibility for the changes in his life that passing from my
           tutelage to the direct tutelage of his Angel would involve. So he
           went out of his way to create situations where everything in his
           life would fall to bits. His marriage, his studies, whatever, his
           commitment to Thelema, which he would then exchange left, right and
           centre for "Let's try and get into the IOT; let's try and be a
           Discordian; what day of the week is it? Oh I'll be Golden Dawn
           today." Yeah? And has become one of the worst sources of continual
           misrepresentation concerning ourselves. Judging from certain
           correspondance we've had from him since, its part of a deliberate,
           supposedly in his mind Discordian process. Well that's as may be. I
           call it making a cheap excuse and finding someone else to blame for
           your own failures. But the fact of the matter is that there was
           never any bone of contention between him and ourselves before he
           had that experience and lost his bottle. And he was on his\own when
           he had it, doing workings of his own devising, because the for one,
           the syllabus has this peculiar feature. It has two major steps to
           which there are no recipes. That is attaining to the Knowledge and
           Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, and Crossing The Abyss.
           The rest of it is, what's the English word for it, scaffolding, its
           there to prop up the edifice. but he devised his own workings, he
           carried them out over months, he nearly got his result and he
           bottled, and after that we've had nothing but trouble from that
       BF: Cause one area that I think there is concern about, is where people
           have entered into the contract to be taught, to endeavour with
           expeience, with the experiences required, that during that process,
           during a series of Workings they have felt "This isn't right". Now
           what happens if that arises, what happens if somebody feels, "These
           sexual acts are not right for me"?
       DR: That depends on whether they open their mouths and say so or not,
           doesn't it.
       IFR: Yes.
       BF: What if they say so?
       DR: Then it stops.
       IFR: And it is respected.
       DR: Always, without exception.
       BF: Right. Right.
       IFR: Or they might not take place in the first place.
       DR: Or they might not take place in the first place.
       DR: We may find other ways.
       BF: Would it be pointed out to them that the Spirits have communicated
           that this series should go ahead or that this is the series of acts
           that have been, that the Spirits have uuh, have communicated should
           be done.
       DR: We are not religious. We are Magicians. We do not take in that
           sense orders from the Spirits. They counsel. Now it is my contention
           that we if you like, we humans, we are the generalists. We are if
           you like central to the whole process because we can do a bit of
           everything reasonably. The other persons who fill this universe,
           they are the specialists, about their own area, their own field,
           they know infinately more than any of us ever can, regardless of
       BF: But they're exclusive.
       DR: But they are narrow.
       BF: Yeah. Yeah.
       DR: Their whole existence is within one Sphere of the Tree if you like,
           whereas we are everything, at least potentially. Therefore, from
           them, as Magicians, we receive counsel, we can act on that
           information and if we don't they can and do say "We told you so".
           Or words to that effect, but in the same way, and allowing for the
           fact that people don't listen to what you say to them, if we are
           communicating to a pupil that such and such has been counselled by
           the powers, we make a point of explaining what that means and what
           it doesn't mean. there is never a "You Must", there is never a
           "Thus saith the lord and therefore you must." There is "It has been
           stated that such and such and such, is it your Will to accept this
           counsel and act on it or not?"
       IFR: What they might find frightening from time to time might be to
           take the responsibility for saying either yes or no, because both
           has consequences.
       BF: Sorry, what... that the pupil might find.
       IFR: What the pupil might find frightening is to take the
           responsibility for the choices.
       DR: It doesn't matter whether they say yes or no.
       IFR: Both has consequences.
       BF: Right, right, and they hesitate...
       IFR: To take the responsibility.
       BF: They hesitate from taking that responsibility.
       DR: Now, if, if we can in the situation there, then clearly see that
           they are hesitating or that they are provaricating, or that they
           haven't understood what the hell we're talking about, nothing
       BF: And you would confirm that?
       IFR: Yes, I would confirm that.
       DR: But that's there then, not back after. Did you get the distinction
           I'm making there?
       BF: Yeah, yeah, I realise that.
       DR: Because what we are dealing with here with a lot of the accusations
           with which we are confronted is retroactive reinterpretation, but I
           will here and now, and you can confirm this seperately for your own
           part after, say, quite categorically, that if there is the
           slightest doubt that in the situation at that moment it is
           anybody's will to go ahead or not go ahead with a particular thing,
           because it's just as bad to not say no when you mean no as it is to
           say yes when you don't mean it, if we have the slightest doubt that
           in a situation of saying yes or no the said person in front of us
           is not actually going to take the responsibility for that yes or
           that no, then we don't go any further before that point is
           clarified, and sometimes that may take months or years, or we may
           never get any further. But that's there then, and that is the
           difficulty here.
       BF: Right. Yes.
       DR: This reminds me a little bit of a lecturer in Statistics I had at
           Aston University, he used to write with both hands and he'd walk
           across the board writing with both hands and then he'd rub it out
           going the other way, and he'd mumble to the blackboard. He was
           absolutely brilliant but I didn't discover that until two years
           later when I bought his book. I learned absolutely nothing in his
       IFR: There have been situations where I have chosen not to engage a
           pupil and have to carry the burden and the consequences and the
           responsibility for that. Again, weighing the risk against the risk
           between somebody engaging in something ...
       DR: that they're not wholeheartedly with...
       IFR: Yeah, that they're not wholeheartedly with; then I'd rather not.
       BF: Right, you've avoided that situation.
       IFR: Yes. Yeah.
       DR: Always, but again, it's there then, and it changes in retrospect.
       BF: And these Magickal Operations that are complementing the published
           syllabus of AA, these may involve tattoos...
       IFR: That's a bit of an odd question, can you specify actually what you
       BF: That the Magickal Operations that are complementing the published
           syllabus of the AA, the experiential, do these maybe involve
           receiving a tattoo? Is that something that's happened?
       DR: This is the "Us forcing people into having tattoos and piercings
           for our own profit".
       BF: I have to ask.
       DR: Yeah. Yeah.
       BF: To clear the air.
       IFR: Most of the tattoos and piercings which I have done on pupils,
           have been required by them and asked for by them, and sometimes if
           the tattoo or piercing is not necessary or essential for the Work
           they have paid for it by commercial prices. If it has been
           essential for the Work I have not charged for it.
       DR: Even if it's been uncertain as to its being essential, but if its
           arisen out of the context of the Work you haven't charged for it.
           If NN comes along and says "I want such and such" because I happen
           to like the idea, then OK they are a customer.
       IFR: Yeah.
       DR: They pay for it at 45 pounds per hour same as any bastard else.
       BF: Right.
       DR: If however in the process of so and so in their own Work getting
           some inspiration, information, or whatever, that they need a
           particular image as a part of that stage of what they are doing,
           and if that person is her pupil, because if they're someone else's
           pupil then it's a different game, yeah?
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: If they're someone else's pupil, as far as she is concerned,
           clearly it's still a commercial proposition, because they come to
           her then not as teacher but as tattooist. And this is a distinction
           that needs to be kept as well, yes?
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: But if, for example, somebody who is her pupil needs a particular
           image, in their judgement, then it is done, and I would estimate
           that over the last three years or so, you have probably done
           something in the region of 10 to 12 thousand pounds worth of free
           work on various people...
       BF: Because that's been part of...
       DR: In terms of tattooing, piercing, in one instance, scarification,
           which in view of the still undecided "Spanner" business is quite a
           risky undertaking to do in the studio, she's one of the few people
           who will actually take the risk to do it.
       IFR: I couldn't say an amount sort of off the top of my head.
       DR: Well, I'm working on the amount of hours, the amount of square
           inches, what you would normally have taken for work.
       IFR: To say it like that. I gladly do a tattoo and do not have the, I
           mean it costs me money because I pay the material and my time.
       DR: Excuse me a minute, its actually more than that because there's a
           strange consistent experience that say for example somebody is
           coming in to the studio on a particular day for a clearly Magickal
           piece of tattooing...
       BF: Somebody else comes in... wanting to have a bit of commercial
       DR: Well, they don't get it for one thing, but also the somebody else
           doesn't come in.
       BF: Oh right, oh right.
       DR: If you want to kill a day stone dead as far as trade is
       BF: Do a Magickal one...
       DR: Do a Magickal one at the start of the day. Nothing else happens all
           day. And this is absolutetly consitant over months.
       BF: Right, right.
       IFR: I don't do it at the beginning of a day.
       DR: Do it at the end of a day. Or a Sunday which is appointment only.
       BF: So...
       IFR: But I have never ever forced any pupil to have any tattoo,
           piercing or any kind of body decoration ...
       DR: Or even henna decoration or body paint.
       IFR: No never, ever.
       DR: Not so much as a haircut.
       BF: Right.
       IFR: I only have the hard work and no money for it.
       BF: Right, so just thinking about the free ones. Because they are part
           of people's Work who are pupils of yours. Where does, is this, are
           they responding to communication from the Spirits that it's
           suggested to be their Work, you know, a step on their Path?
       DR: Do you mean communication through us? Sometimes. Sometimes direct
           to themselves, sometimes they just get an idea.
       IFR: I can not remember that any of my ex-pupils have had anything done
           to their bodies, that they haven't asked ME for, something they
           wanted, and then I have said ...
       DR: We'll check it, we'll check it.
       IFR: We'll check it. They have come to me. I think maybe once I have
           said "I think that might be a good idea, have a think about it"
           and... no, actually that was a commercial one, the one I'm thinking
           about particularly, no she actually came to me and said "I want a
           tattoo." I have never, ever ...
       DR: And I have actually once stopped a pupil of mine from having
           something done, which they had convinced themselves was absolutely
       IFR: I have also done wedding tattoos, as a gift.
       BF: What tattoos, sorry?
       IFR: Wedding tatoos, as a gift, as a wedding present. It was offered...
       DR: Twice you've done that...
       IFR: Twice I've done that. It was offered as a wedding gift, they said
           yes to the wedding gift, and I did it. No charge.
       DR: In the one case the wedding lasted and they are still happy with
           their tattoos, in the other case it didn't.
       IFR: One did come and said "I would like a cover up job".
       DR: Sorry, dejargonising, a cover is where...
       BF: I know...
       DR: Yeah for those who may get this who have no idea, a cover is
           putting a new tattoo over an old one, which for one reason or
           another one wishes to get rid of.
       IFR: And I offered to do it for free. That tattoo never got finished.
       DR: It probably wouldn't have gone with the frocks he wore.
       IFR: All the others have been commercial tattoos, they have come and
           asked for, and I have treated them as customers. If somebody comes
           to my studio, and even before I had the studio, if they come and
           ask for a tattoo or a piercing they are treated as any other
           customer, paying for it or not. They are treated as a customer.
       BF: So, people, I mean AA pupils, present AA pupils, and past AA pupils
           of yours, have the Spirits suggested that they should have a tattoo
       IFR: No, not through us.
       DR: Not through us.
       BF: Not through you, not through you?
       IFR: All those has come to me because they wanted it. I don't think it
           was from any Spirit what soever, they felt this would be right for
           me to have, I want suddenly to have 10 rings in my ears, or I want
           my labia pierced, or I want these Spare tattoos. they have come to
           me as a professioanl tattooist and body piercer, saying "I would
           like this work."
       DR: Now there have been, there have been some of our more advanced and
           still current pupils, who have their own communications with the
           Spirits, or dare I say it, with their own HGA's, who have come and
           said "In my work, so and so". be it their HGA or a particular
           Spirit "has counselled that I should have such and such" but this
           is their information obtained by them through their own Work, not
           being channelled through us.
       IFR: And it is on my discretion when I come, if it my own pupils I do
           not charge, and if it's somebody else's pupils its on my own
           discretion if I charge or not.
       DR: Or if she charges a cost or if she charges a commercial rate.
       BF: So.
       DR: And for a while after a particular occasion, when the story that
           she was overcharging people for magically forced tattoos was being
           spread, you actually kept a book, did you not where anybody having
           work, even in the OTO context as for example a couple of 5th Degree
           tattoos that she did, had to sign the book to say that I'm doing
           this of my own free will, this is my choice nobody's forcing me and
           I'm being charged either at cost, or free or whatever...
       IFR: Actually, all those people...
       DR: Sorry...
       IFR: All those ex-pupils I think, have actually signed that book
           because that happened after accusation. To protect my own back, I
           had this book, they had to sign it, that ...
       DR: Where it is, is another question...
       IFR: I can find it in a few minutes, yeah, I know where it is.
       BF: And, and have you advised either out of your own judgement or on
           the basis of information from the Spirits that the people are to
           have tattoos as part of their Magickal work?
       DR: No, I have on some occasions confirmed their own...
       AB: Enquiry, was that specifically adressed...
       DR: To me, to Br. David, yes...
       DR: I have confirmed inspirations or information of their own on
           occasions. I have as I said, dissuaded someone on one occaision,
           because the information was clearly coming from other areas than
           what one might call reliable or legitimate, to whit his own whims
           then disguised as...
       BF: Yeah, as whatever...
       DR: Divine revelation or whatever. The gentleman subsequently took up
           heroin instead, so. But I have never, ever said to anybody "You are
           told or counselled by Spirits through me that you should have a
           tattoo, or you should have a piercing, or you should have a
       BF: OK.
       IFR: Neither have I, never, ever.
       DR: And there is a distinction between confirming something that
           somebody themselves has brought to you. Sometimes I won't even talk
           to the Spirits, sometimes I will pull out some suitable oracle.
       BF: Do it by divination.
       DR: Do it by divination. In fact most commonly I will do it by
           divination, and I always put up two alternatives. if this person
           does such and such what then, if they don't what then? There's your
           two alternatives, make your own sodding mind up.
       IFR: I would like to go back to where the accusation, the first
           accusation about tattooing arrives.
       DR: Br. Fitton.
       IFR: Br. Fitton, he wanted me to add something to a tattoo he had
       DR: Done by another tattooist.
       IFR: And he had to wait a few months because I didn't, until I had
           finished my apprenticeship and felt I could do the job to a
           professional standard. I gave him a price, which was the price I
           was taught by my, the tattooist who taught me, to charge. He
           thought that was too much because the tattooist he used to go to in
           Birmingham charged about half of the market price for tattooing in
           Manchester. They vary from city to city. Manchester has got little
           competition, in Birmingham we are talking about competition between
           maybe 18 tattooists.
       DR: 18, one eight, whereas in Manchester you've got what, 5,6.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: And obviously markets determine prices.
       IFR: I quoted him a price which would be relevant for Manchester. He
           said "I think that is too expensive, can I sell you a fridge
           instead?" And I said, "No I am not interested in a fridge, that is
           what the tatoo will cost", end of statement, and as far as I'm
           concerned end of that story.
       DR: But I mean, nobody at any time said "You have to have it done here,
           you can't go back to Brimingham to do it."
       IFR: If he wanted it cheap he could have gone back to Birmingham. But
           he particularly wnated me to do it and I had to let him wait three
           or four months before I said "Yes, I'm willing to do it."
       DR: I mean what we are talking about here is adding a statement in
           Arabic script to an already existing tattoo, a tattoo that was done
           by one of the best in the country, and ie therefore anything added
           to it would necessarily need to be of a quality where it didn't
           jar. Yeah?
       BF: Yeah, yeah.
       DR: And this is a script, not the script normally written by the
           tattooist, a script in itself noted for its usage in decorative
           form. I mean we are talking about a caligraphic culture here. And
           where clearly one would need to be absolutely certain that what
           went on said what it was supposed to.
       IFR: Research.
       DR: That is the reason I would never have a Chinese ideogram tattooed
           on me unless I was certain what it said. Because I have this fear
           of walking through China town and all the Chinese falling over
       IFR: Can we please stop, I'm off to the loo.
       DR: Just then to add to the record a comment I made while the tape
           wasn't running. In one sense here we are answering the specific
           accusations by the more general argument that we're presenting
           here, because any particular accusation that is brought really, all
           we would say to it is what we're saying here, in the specific
       IFR: Yeah. Yeah.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Perhaps by doing it this way we keep it within the range of
           discourse within an investigation rather than accusation and
           counter-accusation in a more adversarial prosecution form.
       BF: I think we are covering more ground.
       DR: We are covering more ground in a much shorter period of time and
           really, if we can continue in this vein for a little longer I think
           that we will have said what we have to say. And it will then be
           down to Br. Ben to judge each particular complaint that he has
           collected in the light of this general answer.
       BF: The whole thing is passed on.
       DR: Yeah. And if then it is requested that we should respond to any
           particular given accusation...
       BF: Then that can be...
       DR: Then that can be submitted to us in written form and replied to in
           written form, is that agreeable?
       BF: Yeah, that's fine.
       SW: Woah, Woah, One sec, just let me get this last bit of agreement
           down here...
       DR: If specifics are required to be answered that can be done in
           writing against a written copy of what's been said, exactly what's
           been said.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Whether that would prove fruitful or not...
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: I am very wary of this strange phenomenon of retroactive
       IFR: If they had complained at the time...
       DR: It is strange the way people react, it is strange what they don't
           tell you. One ex-pupil who subsequently proved troublesome had this
           idea, that as a priest of EGC he HAD to be promiscuous, it was his
           obligation, well, I mean, what's your excuse. And this partly took
           the form of him saying that the lady to whom he was married was his
           wife but he needed a mistress to represent the higher and darker
           forms of his worship of the feminine. And it became fairly clear
           that the woman he particularly chose to do that, he did because he
           thought and I quote: "For me she is very much like what it would
           be like to be with Irene."
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Since I think in the case in question, Irene wouldn't have touched
           him with a three inch thick condom on a large spoon, unless
           specifically so instructed by her HGA as an Ordeal, it was quite an
           interesting observation on the person's state of mind, but it was
           only right at the very end of his time as my pupil that he actually
           put that into his Diary and told me about it. Because I don't go
           reading every detail in people's Magickal Diary, I haven't got the
           time to do it, haven't got the stomach for it quite honestly. What
           I do is when a pupil comes they bring their Diary and I say "Is
           there anything in your Diary that you want me to look at or want to
           tell me about?" I leave it up to them. This is usually a mistake,
           but it's the only practical way of doing it. If, if things had
           been otherwise, if, instead of the nebulous promise which started
           my formal activity in this context, I'd had a piece of paper from
           somebody or other and say, could issue people with a silly little
           chitty, saying that "I the great Kathumpit recognise you as 5=6"
           or whatever, which would be totally meaningless but some people
           like collecting pieces of paper, then obviously I would have had to
           have gone through the sheer horror of reading people's Diaries in
           great detail, page by page. But it's one of the few luxuries in
           working the way we do, that I don't actually have to do that. That
           I can leave it to them, to their integrity, to select what they
           want to tell me.
       IFR: Apart from in the, for a new pupil...
       DR: Until they get into the habit of keeping a Diary properly...
       IFR: I would choose to read the Diary, and often ask to do so, for the
           one purpose and the one purpose only that to guide them how to keep
           the Magickal Diary, to use the Method of Science. They're very
           uncertain and insecure what should go into the Magickal Diary and
           give them some advice on that. That is the information which is
           useful for you, the Magickal Diary, for you and for you alone,
           because you forget things over the years so you can go back and
           look in your Magickal Diary and look what has changed in your
           Magickal Work, the Diary is for you, it is not for me.
       DR: Also, because one of the points that we always make to people until
           they're sick of hearing it is not can you do it, but can you do it
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: I.e., that they have to be able to keep a record from which they
           can not only determine what was done at a particular moment but the
           conditions under which it was done, the intent with which it was
       IFR: Yeah.
       DR: So if subsequently, they repeat such an Operation and get a totally
           different result or no result at all, they are able to analyse from
           the changes in conditions etc., why possibly things operated
           differently, and thus build up a coterie of experience, a corpus,
           sorry, of experience on which they can judge their own work. Also
           because sooner or later, if you learn you have to teach. One of the
           few rewards of teaching in such a context, is like being a
           grandparent, is when the bastard takes on his own pupils and really
           starts to suffer... Everything you've been through with them, they
           go through as well. And you can sort of smile, you know, and say
           "Yes, isn't it?"
       BF: Now there is a matter: We'd better press ahead, because there is
           one element that we have to talk about. Now have your children been
           involved in any AA Magickal Working?
       DR: NO!
       IFR: NO !
       AB: Can we pause there and get that explicit?
       DR: Absolutely, categorically... The only Magickal Workings in which
           they participate are the public and generally accepted ones such as
           the Gnostic Mass and other things to which they would normally have
       BF: Right.
       DR: In spite of their age. Both of them being EGC members I hasten to
           add, of their own choice, but they have never been involved in any
           Working sexual or otherwise in the context to which we are now
           referring, they have never ever been involved in any sexual Working
           in any context.
       SW: Woah.
       AB: Yes, please.
       IFR: And I repeat, never ever has that taken place.
       BF: Any sexual Magickal Working.
       IFR: Never, ever.
       DR: Nor have they, have either of them ever been by us in any way used
           sexually for the entertainment of customers, bretheren, or anything
           like that. And I want it on record...
       BF: Ah, well this is your opportunity.
       DR: I want it on record that I am quite prepared to do physical damage
           to any person, irrespective of whatever Magickal Oaths and promises
           I might be bound by who would dare to my face to suggest otherwise.
       BF: Umm. Hmm.
       DR: Any person, I do not care who they are, what office they hold, or
           what obligations I may have towards them in any context, I will
           personally tear limb from limb anybody who suggests, that we in any
           context whatsoever are guilty of any form of abuse of our children.
       AB: A pause please, its important.
       DR: But I hasten to add... sorry are you caught up yet?
       SW: Not quite.
       DR: I hasten to add that nobody, and that includes Louis Malloy, and it
           includes Christopher Kelly in his new Discordian persona, who has
           either made such an accusation or mediated such an accusation,
           allegedly made by somebody else, not one of these persons has ever
           had the guts or the decency to confront us directly. They've
           trogged off and they've spoken to you or to other people but they
           have never ever had the decency or the guts to confront us
           directly, and when asked...
       IFR: To make a statement.
       DR: To make a statement, Mr Kelly wrote us a very silly letter in which
           he avoided the issue entirely, and sort of under the motto "All
           Hail Discordia!".
       IFR: On such a serious accusation, a silly letter.
       DR: No.
       BF: How do you think this rumour might have arisen?
       IFR: Out of somebody's sick mind or willful malice...
       DR: Or both.
       IFR: Or both. I don't have a mind who could create something like that,
       DR: Look, as far as for example, Molloy is concerned, I mean, not only
           here but also the chicken fucking accusation...
       BF: Oh I know, that...
       IFR: Cats and dogs...
       DR: Cats and dogs and chickens, "She is off somewhere" the quote was,
           to somebody who's... I gave it earlier. I don't think....
       IFR: I want to say something...
       DR: Let me just finish please....that you as a bookseller, have the
           experience of a branch of commerce which is as brutal and as
           vicious as the tattooing world or the piercing world. You've got to
           remember that tattooing grew out of a world occupied by sailors and
           bikers. The old method was, if somebody opened a tattoo studio
           nearer to your studio than you liked, you broke their hands with a
           lump hammer and smashed their studio up. Well this is no longer the
           practice but the attitude is still there. As far as the piercing
           world is concerned it did, however much it has now gone mainstream,
           initially grow out of the "modern primitive" movement, who took it
           over from the old S&M milieu, which let's face it, is full of
           vicious queens, not to out too fine a point on it. Some of them are
           good friends of ours but they are still vicious queens. And, the
           problem here is, that in that world people will not hesitate to go
           to extreme lengths to blacken each other's names or even to
           physically attack each other's studios. Irene's studio was burgled
           not last Sunday but the Sunday before. From the manner of what was
           damaged and what wasn't, what was taken and what wasn't, it is very
           easy to deduce that this is also a message, and although we are not
           in possession of evidence that would stand up in a court of law, we
           are in possesion of evidence which indicates a chain of events,
           that tattooist Malloy calls in a favour from tattooist Rambo of
           Manchester, who's on the rough end of the scale, who pays a couple
           of lads 23 quid each and whatever they can get for what they take,
           provided they do it in a certain way, to break into the studio, as
           a piece of intimidation. well it didn't bloody work. We moved
           heaven and earth and replaced the grand's worth of equipment that
           was taken, mopped up where they pissed on the floor and pissed in
           the filing cabinet, got rid of the bag of bush they'd left behind,
           etc, etc... And the only things that are damaged are in the actual
           studio workspace itself, where the hygiene matters, they're all
           about the ability to communicate, like the phone and fax. All to do
           with the atmosphere of the studio. I mean, I don't think that you
           or anybody outside that world could really comprehend how vicious a
           world the tattooing and piercing circuit is.
       IFR: And I'm a...
       DR: And she's a woman, one of very few, in a very tough, primarily,
           maccho, male world. Malloy has never forgiven her for walking out
           on him, even if he spent a year mucking about. And we know that he
           will go to great lengths to cause her damage.
       IFR: What is essential here is that he knows that I am the only real
           commercial competition he has...
       DR: In Manchester.
       IFR: In this city. He knows that he can't touch me professionally in my
           skills as a tattooist and a body piercer. The only weapon he thinks
           he has is that it had been put to his attention that I was a member
           of a Magickal Order. And to spread rumours and all the superstition
           that goes with that and in that way commercially destroy me.
       BF: I mean, right, just to be...
       DR: So that's ONE source. Then as we have been speaking of, there are
           all those who one way or another at one point or another have been
           connected with certain sides of our Work who for one reason or
           another have fallen away from that, and in self-justification or in
           justification to each other, cause some of them exist in nice
           little, ethnically determined knots, will tell stories. Then you
           have those, and I will name names here, like Chris Kelly, who seem
           to have taken upon themselves the role of "I am a Discordian now,
           so now I'm going to cause as much trouble as possible, and I will
           lead by the nose, whoever I can lead by the nose." But I'll tell
           you straight up Ben. He'll laugh behind your back just as much.
       BF: Right.
       DR: I will say this now, and I will say on the record : Remember the
           Tyburn Blessing.
       BF: You'll have to remind me.
       DR: It was traditional, when people were about to be hung, in public,
           on Tyburn Tree in London, that they would turn to the crowd, and
           they would say: "Bless you me boys, me today, you tomorrow".
       BF: I mean here, I'm just, just, just putting forward something that
           may be in other people's minds. Just the kind of Devil's advocate.
           Giving you the opportunity, I mean, cause, cause, people might
           think: Well Louis Malloy, he started teaching you, knowing that you
           were going to practice in Manchester.
       IFR: No, he did not know, that is one of the things he holds against
           me, that he mean that I should have informed him when I started as
           an apprentice, that I was a member of a Magickal Order. The
           relationship between Louis Malloy and myself has always been
           professional, and commercial over my side, his lying and...
       DR: But what you have to remember here, is that initially, Louis took
           her on as an apprentice because he intended to move to the US, and
           he wanted to train up someone who could continue his studio in
           Manchester with the same quality. He then got himself a new lady,
           didn't go to the States, and was stuck with training up someone who
           he really otherwise probably would never have dreamed of taking on
           as an apprentice at all.
       IFR: Yeah.
       BF: Right. Right.
       IFR: And his lady friend didn't like him having a female apprentice...
       DR: Cause she's pathologically jealous. But what it comes down to, is
           that there was never any original intent for Irene to be Louis'
           commercial rival in Manchester. The original intent from both sides
           was that she would become "The successor of Louis Malloy at
           Middleton Tattoo Studio". whilst he opened up a new pratice in
           California, or wherever he thought he was going to.
       IFR: Not California, somewhere else.
       DR: Well, somewhere in the States. Yeah, over there somewhere.
       BF: Right. Right.
       DR: Yeah? So that when it became clear that...
       IFR: And it did take him three months before he actually told me that
           he was not going to the States.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: I mean, the man's whole way of dealing with that matter was so
           radically dishonest, in many respects, even to the point that he
           had a second apprentice on the dally.
       IFR: All the time, he still has.
       BF: A second apprentice.
       DR: Well, sort of, being held in the background on strings, that "If it
           doesn't work out with her, you can have a go, chummy."
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: Now that second apprentice, was at that time good friends with a
           number of the people who were then living in the Rochdale area. And
           who are OTO people. He has also himself occasionally sort of
           dabbled a bit in, you know, drawing Trees of Life and things, yeah?
       BF: Right.
       DR: And he was obviously one source of information for Louis.
       IFR: In fact he used him...
       DR: Now there's another way, older way, going back a bit. And this goes
           back to the reasons why, at one time certain monies were retained
           in Manchester with all the misunderstandings around that. All this
           has been detailed in a letter that was sent to the OTO, handed to
           the Grand Secretary when you lot were in Aachen.
       IFR: By hand.
       DR: And to which I've never to this day's date had a reply, but I think
           you'll remember a friend of ours called Pete Service who was
           involved in blowing the whistle on a lot of sort of paedophile
           circles and what have you.
       BF: I remember what you're talking about.
       DR: We haven't seen him for a great number of months now and we believe
           that the cancer finally caught up with him. But, at that time, one
           of the people who became associated with us was a lady called Lyn
           Weir. Long chain of events but Lyn, essentially, was blackmailed by
           certain other parties, in Manchester, who'd themselves been
           involved in spreading all sorts of rumours about me when I ran
           Scorpion's Nest, which resulted in a number of things including the
           closure of that business, in the end. Cause I lost custom,
           important custom, because of rumour mongering. I mean I've been
           down this route as well. But, Weir was blackmailed by threats made
           against the children of her lesbian partner, into acting on certain
           people's behalf. She stole certain documentation from this house
           whilst a guest in this house, which she was because she was
           basically in considerable physical danger from certain people at
           that time and we gave her shelter. And subsequently, used, under
           pressure from the people who were threatening her lover's children,
           misrepresented bits of information, which she spread round all the
           bloody tarot lines in Manchester concerning us.Going round the same
           circuit and making a few things clear, Pete Service and I managed
           to knock that on the head. But certain parts of that remained as it
           were, in certain people's knowledge. One of whom was a gentleman
           called Mike who ran a shop and still runs a shop, and who intended
           to branch into tattooing...
       IFR: and piercing.
       DR: And piercing, which he never did. Some of this eighteen month old,
           two year old distorted information, through him, is fed back to
           Louis Malloy, along with a load of stuff about sort of...
       IFR: To put me out of business.
       DR: Sort of "News of the Worldy" stuff about what the OTO... all the,
           what's his names, the Grand Satanist, the guy who had a hundred
           thousand members, and Enoch Powell was one of the bosses.
       BF: Oh, not, Ray Boggard.
       DR: No, no, he was a con man.
       BF: Oh, I know who you mean.
       DR: Yeah right, right. All sort of bits of press cuttings from that
           time again, all comes to Louis Malloy. Woman runs, there's another
           woman runs Manchester Piercing Studios, name of Anna Kai. Who was
           at one point supposed to become Irene's business partner, stiched
           her up something shocking, has been one of her main rivals on the
           piercing front since, and again has been responsible for spreading
           odd rumours. Some of which derived from a gay friend of Anna's who
           has contacts in the fetish world, spreading bits and pieces about
           some of Irene's activities vis-a-vis that world, which are a
           natural adjunct of her business.
       IFR: And public.
       DR: And quite public.
       BF: Right.
       DR: These then get mangled up, chewed up, splat out, re-processed, and
           spread around by Anna's associates. At the same time, Anna is
           getting assistance, all of a sudden, from Louis Malloy. Then,
           there's Pam and Jonathan. These are some people who were originally
           resident in the Orkneys, and to whom we gave a great deal of
           friendship and assistance at one time when they needed it.
           Unfortunately, she is mentally unstable, I mean she's got papers to
           prove it and everything, you know, lithium and the whole shebang.
           But she's also an exotic dancer, whatever that means, and was at
           one point of time supposed to be getting extensive tattooing from
           Irene. In fact she went to Luois, and during the course of her time
           as Louis' client, fed him all sorts of weird mythology about us.
           About me being a sorcerer and how she'd witnessed all kinds of sort
           of physical manifestations that made me sound like bloody Sai
       IFR: ...flying around the room.
       DR: Plates manifesting out of thin air etc. etc.
       BF: Oh God.
       IFR: That's the level it is at.
       DR: What you gotta remember about Malloy, he would never admit to it
           because he's now so sort of upmarket in his own view. Malloy's
           father is an Irish tinker. Now's there's nothing wrong with that
           but in the background of Malloy's reactions is a whole culture of
       IFR: And is he superstitious.
       DR: And is he superstitious. Yes he is, something shocking. Now
           obviously, you out this all together and there'a all sorts of bits
           flying round yeah?
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: Which is a very nice standing raw material for any person of ill
           will to conjure out of nowhere, as it were, and put together as a
           new variation on the same story.
       IFR: Also I mean, they would deliberatly and by malice aforethought do
           create rumours only to damage, with the only purpose to destroy me
           comercially. That is what it is about, it's a commercial war. And
           that is the weapon he think he has.
       DR: I mean, I don't think, I would like to think, that even those who
           are lodging complaints against us in reference to things we are
           supposed to have done to, with or at them, of earstwhile bretheren
           and ex-bretheren, that none of them have stooped so low as to
           involve the question of the children, with the exception of Chris
       BF: Ah, I mean again...
       DR: Who is doing it second hand.
       IFR: We don't know that do we?
       BF: I mean again, one thing that I do have a bit of knowledge about...
       SW: Could you just...hang on one sec...
       DR: Arms are falling off here.
       SW: Arms are falling off.
       AB: Going a bit rapidly.
       SW: Be with you in a second...
       IFR: Not to say what it costs parents to go through such things.
       BF: Yeah. Oh yes.
       DR: And with all respect, unless you are one, you really can't
       BF: No I realise that.
       DR: I mean, may I just say here, we are not the only people to have
           suffered that. Evan and Becki have got both their children on the
           "At Risk" list.
       BF: Why's that?
       DR: Because somebody maliciously informed the social that they were
           keeping their children in unhygienic conditions and they were into
           Magick. And that somebody, I can't prove but I believe was most
           likely Br Fitton after he fell out with them, and if I could prove
           it, he would not be walking now. But the timing was so exact, it's
           a pity, I say this, but I do say it. He is one of the two most
           likely people to have maliciously have informed on them and
           produced a situation where their eldest son, our Godson, is on the
           "At Risk" list and the babe was put on the "At Risk" list at birth.
       BF: Right.
       IFR: So much for brethren.
       BF: Well, now...
       DR: I mean...
       BF: If I can just say... OK.
       DR: What I'm saying is that we're not the only people...if you are a
           parent, you are extremely vulnerable.
       BF: Right. I realise that.
       DR: That's another risk that we take for the sake of what we consider
           to be our Obligations to the Work.
       BF: Now, I would just say two things.
       DR: Yeah.
       BF: Now this is not really why I'm here...
       DR: Yeah.
       BF: Not really why I'm here but I just feel it would be useful for me
           to just say two things. One thing, you know, cause I obviously
           explained what I'm doing here, and it's not really part of it...
           but one thing is with Chris, his reaction when he heard that
           particular allegation about Tanith, was Louis Malloy about going to
           the press, or, yeah the press, or the police, Chris actually
           counselled him to do neither, and then spoke to people who he
           trusted in the OTO.
       IFR: Do you have any information what so ever where that rumour could
           have started?
       BF: I don't know. I do not know. My...
       DR: So why couldn't Chris have the decency to say that to us.
       BF: Well, thats....
       DR: Instead of writing us a stupid letter.
       BF: ...not for me. That's for Chris. I'm just passing that bit of
           information on. That he actually, he said to Louis Malloy "Don't...
       DR: Have you had that confirmed?
       BF: Uhhmm, it does fit in, I've had conversations with Louis Malloy...
       DR: So what was Chris doing at Louis', having his tattoo removed or
           altered I assume.
       BF: I don't know. No idea. Uhhmm.
       IFR: Could I ask for information please?
       BF: You can certainly ask.
       IFR: ...Of the content of your conversation with Louis Malloy.
       BF: They were quite long conversatiosn, quite long conversations. You
           know. Basically, I mean these allegations were made and that's, you
           know, that was the source...
       IFR: That one in particular about Tanith.
       BF: Yes.
       IFR: Anything else?
       BF: That was basically what I spoke to Louis Malloy about. That was the
           pressing thing with Louis Malloy. The other thing I would, was just
           the other thing I wanted to say, now at that time I was very much
           in contact with Barry.
       DR: Yeah, yeah.
       BF: The thing you talked about with Ev and... I don't know exactly when
           it was, I don't remember exactly when it was. But I was very much
           inn contact with Barry.
       DR: It was shortly...
       BF: And I mean I don't think he did that. I really, my judgement...
       IFR: That's your judgement.
       BF: Yeah, it's my judgement, that I mean I'm saying this without any
       IFR: Yeah, sure.
       DR: Yeah.
       IFR: I believe you.
       BF: I really don't think he did that.
       DR: We believe it's his judgement.
       IFR: Yes.
       DR: Let's be clear on that.
       IFR: I believe it is your judgement, yes.
       BF: But let's press on, I mean that's not really why I'm here. The, I
           mean there is something that we have touched upon, Peter Service,
           that I think we could take this opportunity to clarify because it
           looks like OTO operations, the Strict Observance Oasis, the
           activities of that were closed down because somebody else was being
           prosecuted for the possession of paedophiliac material.
       DR: No, this is not the case.
       BF: Please clarify.
       AB: Could we go slowly here please.
       BF: Yeah. This is the opportunity to clarify.
       IFR: Never heard anyhting like it.
       SW: So "Looks like OTO operations and to whit Strict Observance was
           closed down...
       BF: Because.
       AB: Somebody else was being prosecuted...
       BF: Prosecuted because of possession of paedophiliac material.
       IFR: May I say something here?
       BF: Please.
       DR: That is a gross misrepresentation.
       IFR: A year before Strict Observance Oasis was closed, the then master
           of the Oasis Fr. Azrael.
       DR: Me.
       IFR: Otherwise, Br David, said " In one year I will close this Oasis".
       BF: Right.
       IFR: You've got one year.
       DR: To build a foundation.
       AB: Witnessed.
       IFR: To build a foundation. And a year and a day after that statement.
       DR: We stopped work.
       IFR: That Oasis was closed.
       DR: Now in the meantime there was an hiatus in the work.
       BF: That's what I mean, the hiatus, carry on.
       DR: Right, now that ties in with what was going on, with the business
           with Weir and this nonsense that we mentioned.
       BF: Ahhh.
       DR: I mean, people having battery acid thrown at them, it was getting
           physically dangerous.
       IFR: And she came here.
       DR: And that was why I requested from Clive that we should retain
           certain monies in Manchester as basically an emergency fund if we
           needed to get anybody or their kids out of the city quickly, and he
           agree to that but in a certain... one way or another there was a
           certain misunderstading between him and me about the official
           status of that retention. As soon as that was clear what was the
           case, the monies were dispatched to the States, they were in a
           closed account, in Manchester, the whole bloody time, their never
           was any "financial irregularity".
       BF: This is your opportunity to say.
       DR: Well I've said it. I've said this in a very long letter. The letter
           I referred to, where the whole business of the situation in
           Manchester around the question of the closure of Strict Observance
           Oasis and the pause in its work.
       BF: Yeah, the pause in it's work, that was mainly...
       DR: All that is specified in a very long letter I wrote, six pages
           typed up, twelve pages hand-written, which I sent specifically to
           the Order, and not trusting the mails, it was entrusted to the
           sister here who put it into the hands of Sr Helena.
       IFR: Who had to sign for it.
       DR: Who had to sign for it, that she'd received it. That receipt we
           still have and that is the only reply I have ever received to that
           letter. And anybody now saying the version you have been putting
       BF: Well.
       DR: Must be doing so in total ignorance of information which the Order
           has been in possession of now, for what two years...?
       IFR: Three years, almost...
       DR: Three years. And that letter, a copy went to Clive, and I've got
           the original letter in my handwriting and ...
       IFR: Typed.
       DR: A typed up transcipt of that, for those who can't decipher my
           handwriting, which is ninety-nine point nine percent of the
           population, available, on file.
       BF: Cuz, just, cuz, cuz, cuz, to clarify, there was the hiatus, there
           was the break that you told. you came over for third degrees in
       DR: Yeah, yeah.
       BF: And you told me that you were closing down the operations, not
           closing down the Oasis.
       DR: We went quiet, because we were being targetted.
       BF: Because you were being targetted.
       DR: We were being targetted by the people who were threatened by the
           work that Pete was doing and assumed, and there's a lot of the sort
           of various clergy and diverse who've fallen since that, that I know
           for a fact, that that's based on information he left behind him.
           But it was assumed, because of the association that he had with me,
           through the shop and otherwise, that he was being supported in this
           by the OTO operation in Manchester. And people began to feel
           nervous. I mean, the first step in conning Weir into what she did
           was that somebody threw battery acid at her, which missed her by
           about a foot. After which we got her out of Manchester for four
           days, until she felt secure to come back again.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: I mean, when people start threatening other people's lover's
           children with physical harm, when people start slinging battery
           acid around, and we're talking Hulme, Moss Side, here. I mean,
           people don't fart arse around here, they don't play with pea
           shooters, you're talking AK-47's, you know, this is not our
           paranoia here. There were bits of Manchester that were twinned with
           Beirut at the time. The only thing we could do that was secure, was
           to go into silence for a few months and see where the land lay.
       BF: And Peter Service, he was going through a court case at the time?
       DR: No, he was at that time beginning the work of exposing the
           information which he had spent ten years collecting, since his own
           daughter was killed, whilst he was in prison.
       BF: He was in prison.
       DR: Yeah, the story about Pete is quite simply this. He was at one
           time, one of the best cracksmen in England. He was, what the hell's
           the term, well I'll say pardoned, but that's not quite the right
           term, out of Wormwood Scrubs in the middle of a fifteen year
           sentence and went to work for that which is now GCHQ as an
           information acquirer.
       BF: Because of the skill.
       DR: Yeah, exactly. He was given a new identity, Peter Service, which is
           not his name, Peter being a safe and Service because that's what he
           was doing them, and he worked for them for about seven years
           including acquiring some of the information about that boy's home
           in Northern Ireland.
       BF: Kincorror.
       DR: Yeah, the Kincorror thing, and a few other bits and pieces. Now, he
           made the mistake of getting itchy fingers and doing a bit of
           private work on the side, and ended up in Strangeways. Whilst he
           was in Strangeways, his daughter, who he was raising on his own at
           the time, and who was then I think six, seven.
       IFR: Six, Seven.
       DR: Was abducted from her foster home, and was tortured to death by the
           really bad end of the paedophile scene, possibly on film.
       IFR: Thirty years.
       DR: Yeah, this was thirty years prior to us closing the Oasis activity
           down. Peter was eventually paroled out of Wormwood Scr...out of
           Strangeways, and went back to work for his old bosses, until he
           finally retired and took up as a sort of New Age Therapist and
           other kind of charlaton and confidence kind of trickster on the
           legitimate circuit for those kinds of persons.
       BF: Made a living doing that.
       DR: Making a living doing that. Yeah. But for the whole time after he
           came out of Strangeways, his one real driving force was to find out
           who was responsible for his daughter's death. And to basically take
           out them and anybody like them, not by his old methods, of direct
           GBH, but by the method of exposing the whole network and
           organisation and all the rest of it. Over the period he insured his
           own continued existance by making sure that all his information was
           seperately deposited safely with a friend of his in Germany with
           the instructions that one year and one day after his death by
           anything other than natural causes that information was to be made
           public. And it was also arranged that that information was gently
           and quietly fed into certain offical sources who have subsequently
           begun to deal with various politicians, eccesiastics, high-ranking
           policemen and others along the road whose prosecutions, have
           depended in part on information coming from that source.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: But the assumed assistance that we were giving was enough to put us
           under threat.
       BF: So you closed down activities.
       DR: We closed down activities.
       BF: When that situation.
       DR: Was, was up and running at its worst.
       BF: And he wasn't being prosecuted.
       DR: He was not being prosecuted, no.
       SW: He was the prosecutor.
       DR: He was in fact involved in providing evidence for a number of
           prosecutions that were then in the offing. But he was not being
       BF: Right, right, right, that clears that up.
       DR: And all that is very, very clear in the letter which the Order has
           had in its possession for three years.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: Which is one of the reasons I really do seriously resent this
           constant implication of financial irregularity on my part.
       BF: Right.
       DR: Because there was a misunderstanding, I mean it was my fault in the
           sense that I did not put it in writing the agreement I made with
           Clive, and he didn't remember the verbal agreement we'd made. It
           was as simple as that, so that when push came to shove, it opened
           up for misrepresentation, which seems to have been used as a
           vicarious motive for other things, huh?
       BF: Right.
       DR: According to information received, now again, allegedly, I'm not
           saying that Bill Heidrick has taken that line but it has been said,
           it has reached our ears that it has been said. Indirectly, with
           yourself named as one, with Bruce named as one source for that
           particular story, and Rodney named as another, but again we only
           have it third hand so, I use the term allegedly in the manner that
           "Private Eye" do. But there was never any question of Peter being
           under the investigation. There was a very strange episode where
           his... the house that he was living in in Wolverhampton was broken
           into and raided by the notorious West Midlands Serious Crime Squad
           who tried to do him for the possesion of a large amount of Royal
           Arch Masonic Regalia and other bits which they said were stolen. In
           fact he had them in trust from a friend of his who was a judge,
           which he was able to prove and the whole thing got quietly dropped
           and it was very embarrassing left, right and centre, but when the
           West Midlands Serious Crime Squad was eventually, subjected to
           dissolution, I think, a number of things in that context came round
           as well. I mean, all sort of weird... I mean, my shop, Scorpion's
           Nest, when I had it, was rumoured to be a front for the Manchester
           crime syndicate called the "Quality Street Gang". That rumour
           started because two very strange gentlemen called David and Martin,
           with Sicilian surnames, turned up and asked me if I would front the
           sale of a fourteen kilo white rhinocerous horn to certain Chinese
           gentlemen in Manchester. that particular sale didn't come off,
           which in some ways was a pity because I was on a ride for
           twenty-five grand commission. And in some ways is a damn good thing
           because I don't really think I wanted to be stuck between the Mafia
           and the Tong. But a whole load of weird rumours began to circulate
           after that.
       AB: Could you hang on a second.
       DR: To circulate that I was operating a front for the Quality Street
           Gang and that my occult activities were a front for that. Which
           actually was used against me when I tried to shift to another
           locality because they wouldn't rent it to me.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: It's interesting that John Stalker has also been accused of being a
           front for the "Quality Street Gang".
       BF: Just keeping an eye for the time.
       DR: Yeah, I mean, what I'm saying is there's a whole load of stuff
           going back a long way which is mine-able for weird David and Irene
           stories. Maybe it doesn't happen in smaller cities or maybe it
           doesn't happen in other cities but in Manchester it does.
       BF: Now kind of going over me notes with an eye to the time, pressing
           on. I am anxious, as I say to give you the opportunity to, when
           we're finshed, make any comments that can be communicated as well.
           Partly I have it in mind, just so that people away, away from
           Manchester can have an understanding of what the situation is, if
           you could maybe give an idea of the overlap of AA and OTO
           membership, you know, membership, say of Fires of Orc, Rosa Rubeae,
           and the other OTO bodies in this area, what overlap of the
       DR: I'm not sure whether we can do that in a sense.
       IFR: No, I don't think we can.
       DR: I mean, if we take someone into pupilage, there is an implicit
           confidentiality involved in that.
       IFR: Which we would go and break.
       DR: Both the bodies you have named are still pretty damned small in
           terms of numbers, even if they're large by OTO standards. If we we
           were to say "There's a 50% overlap" what does that result in,
           guessing games.
       BF: No, not necassarily. I don't think that's the intent at all, and it
           wouldn't be the kind of, no one's going to come and do that really,
           it's just so that people can get an idea what the situation is, you
       DR: The most pupils that we altogether have had at any given time is
           about 20, that's including several persons who are not, never have
           been, and most likely never will be members of OTO. The least
           pupils active we have ever had at any one time is about half a
           dozen. Ditto. Let us say that of our pupils then varying between
           forty and eighty percent have some kind of an OTO connection, and
           that they distribute themselves, by dint of geography, not only in
           Manchester, cause it's not just Mancunians that are involved here,
           over the various bodies of OTO which are scattered around in Great
           Britain. Not only in Manchester, so the answer is, that's the best
           answer we can give you at any particular point of time.
       BF: Is there ever any, uuhh, again, either from your judgement or from
           the Spirits, uuhm, influence upon OTO activities communicated to
           members of the AA? Things relevant to the OTO operations...
       DR: No.
       BF: That are communicated.
       DR: NO.
       BF: I'm getting at, what is the relationship.
       IFR: Can you... I didn't catch that, the question.
       BF: Is there ever a situation whether by your judgement as teachers...
       DR: Do we tell our AA pupils to do such, or to engineer such and such
           to come about within the OTO context.
       IFR: NO.
       DR: That wasn't even the case when I was soley in charge of the whole
           sodding OTO- EGC operation in Manchester, when it would have been a
           damn sight easier for me to engineer it if I had wanted to, than it
           is now, with another bunch of wayward assholes. Saving your grace,
           running each their show on their own principles. We do not attend
           and we are not members of Fires of Orc, we do not attend and we are
           not members of Rosa Rubeae, we are not members of either of the
           current EGC temples although we do occasionally attend as guests,
           and we do not and we never have used any influence of ours to
           affect the operations of OTO in this city.
       BF: Or the OTO elsewhere.
       DR: Or the OTO elsewhere. Never have done.
       BF: Umm. Hmm. Right.
       DR: And quite frankly, you know how fucking inefficient the OTO is...
       BF: Oh yes, I know.
       DR: The chance of influencing anything.
       BF: The chance of the OTO influencing anything...
       DR: Yes, right, so, fair enough. No, categorically, absolutely, hand on
           the book, NO. From both of us. You've said no already.
       IFR: I have said no.
       DR: The only exception to that is on occasion, when people who have
           been our pupils or who are our pupils are so absolutely,
           completely, through and through, fed up, pissed off, cheesed off,
           about the way the OTO is, the way it operates, the relationship
           between the OTO in the States and the OTO in England, and all the
           rest of it that they have wanted to leave, and we have dissuaded
           them from doing so and said "Look, stay in there for the Work's
           sake. It isn't what it is that matters, it's what it could be that
           matters. Get in there and work for it." And that is the extent to
           which we have tried to influence anyone. So if we've done anything
           at all, it's probably to keep the show on the road behind the
           scenes by stopping most of the membership from buggering off out of
           sheer fatigue and disgust, and that can go on the record as well.
       BF: Umm. Hmm... I mean, how do you feel about the OTO nationally?
       DR: I can see a lot of things that would be run differently if I was
           doing it but I'm not. And it's the karma of the people that's doing
           it yeah? I'm a different school, I'm a different generation Ben.
           You know, in one sense I belong to the wild frontier, I'm a hairy,
           smelly person, and city folks has taken it over. In one sense,
           perhaps I don't fit in any more, in where it is and where it wants
           to go. I am not more in the way of it, Irene is not more in the way
           of it, than the people that are now running it make us in the way
           of it.
       BF: How do you mean?
       DR: Well, to a certain extent I feel that we've been given the role of
           bogey men by the people in the top end of the OTO. To a certain
           extent, that's been the case ever since Arild and I wrote the
           famous letter to the Link that caused such a riot. It seems to me
           that what the great fear is, is not that we're doing some peculiar
           sorts of Work, the great fear is that we are using that, as your
           question indicates, as a power base to subvert the OTO. Well, it
           doesn't need subverting, it is quite capable of falling to bits on
           its own. By most showings, and I've already said, if we do anything
           at all, it's more likely to prop it up than to pull it down.
       IFR: My answer to your question, Ben, is: I say nothing.
       DR: Yeah, it is as it is and it will attract to itself the people who
           naturally gravitate towards what is has become. Like everything
           else, that's a historical phase. Today I'm the dinosaur, tomorrow,
           you'll be the dinosaur and a whole new generation will be making
           the same damned mistakes as we did, because nobody ever learns a
           fucking thing from history. I have been loyal to that Order ever
           since I first joined it. That was a pure contingency. Arild and I
           wrote off to all the OTO claimants and Grady was the only bugger
           who bothered to answer.
       IFR: So have I.
       BF: Sorry?
       IFR: I say : So have I.
       BF: You wrote off to all the...
       DR: Loyal.
       IFR: I have been loyal.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: We have been loyal inspite of all that's been said to us, in spite
           of all that's been done in a sense, even when my Charters were
           pulled, I remained loyal. Other people wouldn't have done. On the
           record now right. There is a peculiar side loop in transmissions
           and the history thereof, going down through various people in the
           thirties and again in the fifties, with odd inter-relations with
           Paragranus and Gregorius, by which there's a sort of implicit
           situation where an Eighteenth Degree of the Fraturnitas Saturnii,
           of which there are very few at any given time, can form their own
           OTO on the basis of the working of the Pentalpha Grade, or their
           own branch of the OTO. And are therefore also free to pass that on
           to whomsoever they please. Tegtmeier and I have been close friends
           since we met when I was in Germany with Grady. We disagree on
           virtually ever point of Magickal theory you can possibly imagine,
           but we have managed in spite of that, being grown up, adult, and
           sophisticated persons, to remain close friends. One of the results
           of Ralph being sort of dragged into the current investigations of
           us, and he's a funny bastard, you can say what you like about him,
           but upset him about. if the thinks that one of his friends is being
           subjected to an unjust process, he can get quite strange. And on
           the basis of his experience, following your contact with him, and
           also on the basis of some weird interchanges between him and
           Heidrick over the Internet, and with Koenig in the background
           stirring a few things up by all accounts, Ralph basically said
           "Well alright, if they throw you out, I'll give you your own OTO"
           and I said "No, I have committed myself to a particular claimant to
           that name, I have been loyal to it, in spite of itself and in spite
           of everything it is, and in spite of everything it has done to me
           in the time I have been with it. So, I very much appreciate your
           offer, but this is not, if I go out of it, or if I'm driven out of
           it then I will have to decide where my future organisational
           development, organisational commitment lies "but no, I'm not going
           to accept my own and go off and take a large chunk of it with me."
       BF: Very interesting, very interesting.
       DR: I say that to you with Ralph's full agreement and permission, by
           the way, because I'm under no obligation to tell you that. I tell
           you that as an example of the fact that I am still, in spite of
           everything, loyal to this organisation. Not because I think it's
           perfect, because it isn't, not because I even like it very much,
           because I like it less amd less, but because I think that a certain
           organisational activity is necessary and because it probably has as
           good as or least no worse than anybody else's claim to legitimacy
           in terms of historical transmission.
       BF: Right, right.
       DR: And as far as I'm concerned the question of historical transmission
           is important.
       BF: Umm. Hmm... I agree.
       DR: I mean, I've always taken the view that real magicians don't join
           orders anyway, but given that at certain stages in one's career
           some kind of organisational connection is necessary, then for me
           personally, some kind of historical legitimacy is a requirement,
           but the "Caliphate" doesn't have the only claim, it may have the best
           claim to historical legitimacy. You ask me where I stand with
           regard to it. I stand where I have always stood. Before you were in
           it, and probably if I live longer than you do, after you've gone
           from it. I will not leave, partly because I'm damned if I'd give
           anybody that much satisfaction. If I go, it's because I've been
           slung. Now if they want to engineer excuses for doing that, that is
           their business and not mine.
       IFR: And their karma.
       DR: And their karma. Well, you can speak for yourself on that point.
       IFR: I don't have very much more to add.
       BF: Because I have an eye for the time, is there anything else,
           anything that you want to take this opportunity to say.
       DR: Well, as I said earlier, in the event that what we have said today
           is not adequate to give you the basis to judge any specific
           accusations that have been made, in your report. In the event that
           you want us to answer any specific allegations, then providing that
           you give us written, clear statements of what those allegations are
           and from whence they come, we will answer them likewise, in written
           form, to the fullest of our abilities, but it will only be a
           specified variant of what we've said today, in one form or another.
       BF: Well, I feel we've covered a lot of ground today.
       DR: Yeah, in spite of my natural inclinations I haven't strangled you
           either. I will say Ben, that part of the problem between you and me
           has to do with your manner and mine.
       BF: Well.
       DR: You can come across as being incredibly supercilious and very
       BF: Say it. Say it.
       DR: Well, I've said it, I've said it.
       BF: Say it again.
       DR: Whether you mean to or not.
       BF: Yeah. Umm. Hmm.
       DR: And you know, to me this is like a red rag to a bull. I'm sure a
           lot of things I do irritate you.
       BF: Well.
       DR: But in spite of that we've manged to continue, we've managed to
           carry out this meeting. Now we're obviously not going to get time
           to duplicate the tapes.
       BF: We'll duplicate and send you copies.
       DR: You duplicate and send us copies of the tapes and we will send you
           copies of the minute which has been kept here. And then we can all
           compare so anything that's dissappeared on the one can be edited
           in. You...
       BF: Anything else.
       DR: You have checked that that doesn't sound like Donald Duck as well
           have you?
       BF: Yeah.
       DR: I mean you can call me a bull-buggering asshole from Manchester but
           I will not sound like Donald Duck on somebody's tapes. I have my
       BF: Right.
       DR: Are we closing the meeting at...
       BF: Is there anything else that anybody wants to say, any comments,
           anything you feel has gone unsaid?
       IFR: No thank you.
       DR: Meeting closed at six minutes to two.
       BF: Right we'll pack up.
      Back to the other Introductions

      More about all this in: Andreas Huettl and Peter-R. Koenig: Satan - Jünger, Jäger und Justiz

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